International ‘Rules of the Road’ vs. Naval Operation provedures

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

yes, and #1 I did explicitly include the word "Should have" to suggest the possibility they might not have in the actual situation. and #2 explicitly referenced the history of incidents you list in a later paragraph. and #3 explicitly said I thought an oversight committee should investigate whether the bridge did have the necessary knowledge and situational awareness or whether they were still just bumbling along. I'm not sure what more I could have done to satisfy you on this point.

I agree with Ping, hoping this fleet is following instructions to keep well away from other commercial traffic.

However, there are two observations which have to made with respect to navy vs navy incidents.

The first is that the US bridge team cannot let the Russian vessel turn/herd them away from their course, at least not too easily and not from too far a distance. If they allowed that, if they turned away from say a couple miles, then a couple of Russian ships could turn/herd an entire aircraft carrier battle fleet from their course/mission - entirely keep them from ever arriving at their intended destination. And they could easily disrupt anti-sub operations and all sorts of other military operations.

This is not a topic covered by colregs, because commercial ships are not going to be hunting each other like that, and dominance is not relevant like it is in military operations.

The second is that colregs do not give a specific minimum clearing distance, because it differs with the situations and vessels. These military vessels are (or should be ) very maneuverable, and fully crewed, and have great situational awareness (or should have ) and out in 'open ocean' and that means 'risk of collision' is a damn lot closer than it is for two container ships in busy shipping lanes with a guy or two on the bridges. The actual risk of collision here in broad daylight, with two alert bridge teams (should be ), was probably near zero.

OK, fair enough, on all points.



And perhaps there is even a military purpose, maybe even a legitimate military purpose, in the Russians testing whether they can "herd" our warships, as you put it.



I still don't like it! It's fundamentally a game of chicken, with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment and scores of lives at stake.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Lepke

The rules don't apply to the Russian navy...

Eventually some agreement was signed.

The agreement here: https://2009-2017.state.gov/t/isn/4791.htm

You're right that Putin is trying to instigate something.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, fair enough, on all points.

I still don't like it! It's fundamentally a game of chicken, with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment and scores of lives at stake.

Agreed and suspect the Russians deliberately maneuvered themselves into a position so that they were the stand on vessel. Brave given the US recent track record

Of course this sort of thing would never happen in a yacht race would it

Pete

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

. . . Of course this sort of thing would never happen in a yacht race would it . .

Tee hee. Also a good point.


However don't compare the consequences of a couple of J-Boats whacking each other in the Solent, with those of a few tens of thousands of tons of steel doing the same thing in the ocean. The testosterone is bad enough in the Solent; our warriors need to have cold blood.

[boatman61]

Much ado about a coupla macho dudes playing 'Its my pavement'.

[Breaking Waves]

The 'good old days'

USS Caron getting rammed by the Russians in the Black Sea - Feb 1988

Note the very slightly dropped anchor

[jmorrison146]

A lot of curmudgeons here conjecture get, presenting facts not in evidence, along with maligning the professionalism of those they have never met. I like to share what insights I may have but when the curmudgeons chime in, I'm out.