Do you use a Daytime Black ball at Anchor?

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I suppose. But if it has no detectable effect, then it’s hard to accept the validity of the action. As has been pointed out, there are lots of exceptions in the colregs that recognize the different realities of different classes of boats. Unless advocates believe the current colregs are Perfect In Every Way, like some commandment handed down to Moses, then surely the possibility that a current reg. could be unnecessary is not beyond the pale.

Well, when I come into an anchorage it's nice to see some anchor balls up, I know their probably running a tight ship, I know from afar that they're anchored at a glance. I find it helpful so seems the right thing to do to return the favour. Plus the local policia maritima can't give me a hard time on that front or if someone does ram into me there's no questions.
Not really a right/wrong thing, just putting the odds a little more in your favour and maybe making some other cruiser's life that tiny bit easier. For no real downside. It's just a good thing to do, why wouldn't you?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It would appear that some place a value in rational thought and actual data and evidence. Fair enough, your choice.

… See, I can play the passive-aggressive insult game too. But I’d rather discuss things rationally if at all possible.

So am I to understand that you pick and choose which laws you'll follow ?
Perhaps you'll change your mind after anchoring in Marsh Harbour in high season.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by conachair

Well, when I come into an anchorage it's nice to see some anchor balls up, I know their probably running a tight ship, I know from afar that they're anchored at a glance. I find it helpful so seems the right thing to do to return the favour. Plus the local policia maritima can't give me a hard time on that front or if someone does ram into me there's no questions.
Not really a right/wrong thing, just putting the odds a little more in your favour and maybe making some other cruiser's life that tiny bit easier. For no real downside. It's just a good thing to do, why wouldn't you?

I don’t disagree. As we’ve already discussed earlier in this thread, clear communications is one possible benefit. But as has been amply mentioned in this thread, and by the poll numbers, there are large cruising areas where shapes are simply not (or very rarely) used. So the communication benefit you mention, which I have no doubt is real, simply doesn’t happen in large areas of the cruising world.

If you come into any anchorage I’ve been in, and hoist your anchor day shape, it will mean nothing to the vast majority of people b/c it’s not in the culture of the boating community. Likewise, you will see no shapes. But somehow boats still anchor successfully most of the time, and avoid getting into collisions at anchor most of the time.

My speculation is that, in the absence of the anchor day shape use, boaters focus on other pieces of evidence to provide similar, or the same, information. Whether one is better or worse is certainly not for me to say. But I can find no evidence that it makes any difference to actual outcomes.

I would LOVE to see credible evidence either way. As I’ve already said earlier, it seems there is an obvious natural experiment going on here which should easily show at least a correlation. We have at least two large cruising areas with two fairly distinct practices. As statistical analysis goes, it should be easy to examine the impact on collision rates.

The anecdotal evidence presented has almost universally focused on events involving anchor lights at night. This, in itself, is evidence of their lack of efficacy. But as I say, it should be easily possible to answer the question of value.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

So am I to understand that you pick and choose which laws you'll follow ?
Perhaps you'll change your mind after anchoring in Marsh Harbour in high season.

BP, you’re just playing games. If you cannot honestly appreciate that even laws have gradations and scale, then you truly do live in a black and white kind of world. Most of us do not.

P.S. Hope you’ve never exceeded the speed limit, or jaywalked or fudged on your taxes, or...

[Montanan]

Question: So COLREGs specify the use of a black ball day signal when a vessel is at anchor, does a vessel on a mooring also required to display a black ball day signal? [Perhaps the term anchored includes a mooring, i.e. fixed to bottom, but not moored to a dock.

As to the value of such signaled communication of status of the vessel, I suppose that there is the limited capacity of knowledge gained by a another vessel that is underway to be aided in enabling to navigate in such as fashion so as to not traverse within the potential swing radius of the vessel that is anchored or moored. Kind of like utilizing a diver down signal so as to cause other vessels to keep a reasonable distance from the diver down signal. The ball shape signals that the boat is not underway, yet may move about uncontrollably to a limited extent and is not capable of being the give way boat; thus there is some value to the messaging. I am thinking especially of boats trying to traverse a large crowded anchorage or mooring field.

I suspect that there are comparatively few collisions with an anchored or moored boat that are due to the anchored or moored boat shifting positions rapidly [wind or current shift] or far enough to cause a boat that is underway to collide with the swinging boat.

Rather most collisions with anchored and moored boats are due to lack of keeping proper watch or moderating speeds to maintain control, etc. by the underway vessel. And there are those adverse situations caused by nature onto either vessel being driven or dragged by wind or current into the anchored / moored boat. In these instances the display of the day shape seemingly would not have mitigated such collisions.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If you come into any anchorage I’ve been in, and hoist your anchor day shape, it will mean nothing to the vast majority of people b/c it’s not in the culture of the boating community. Likewise, you will see no shapes. But somehow boats still anchor successfully most of the time, and avoid getting into collisions at anchor most of the time.

You could start a trend, never know - it might catch on

Much more than just not hitting people .

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by conachair

You could start a trend, never know - it might catch on

Much more than just not hitting people .

Only in areas where it’s used. Bit of a catch-22

But yes, I’ve already said I will try and start the trend over here. It’s really not a big deal, and it will give my Newfoundland friends more reasons to be amused by me .

[Montanan]

As to a likely more realistic evaluation of day signal usage at anchor than the pooling of this forum would be a Google search of images of boats at anchor.

I searched "sailboats at anchor" and boats at anchor and scrolled down through hundreds of images and spotted just two pictures where a black ball was displayed. One was a mega power yacht with the anchor hoisted on a post at the bow.

So yes it is appropriate to use such but in real life, it appears that they are exceedingly rarely deployed.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Montanan

So yes it is appropriate to use such but in real life, it appears that they are exceedingly rarely deployed.

Exceeding rare in google images maybe, commonplace in Europe.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

But yes, I’ve already said I will try and start the trend over here. It’s really not a big deal, and it will give my Newfoundland friends more reasons to be amused by me .

Go for it

Give people an excuse to come and say hello.

Then another against argument, "anchor balls make your coffee run out quicker!!"

Would actually be interesting to hear of the reactions, if you do give it a go let us know how people react.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by conachair

Exceeding rare in google images maybe, commonplace in Europe.

Maybe I should try using Google Earth water view images.

I did find this image of a yacht at anchor displaying the black ball. This is in the BVI.

Look real hard and you just might spot such day signal for what it's worth.

About 99% of the photos pulled up for France, Greece, UK, Sweden have no balls, literally no balls. Ditto for the USA.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Montanan

About 99% of the photos pulled up for France, Greece, UK, Sweden have no balls, literally no balls. Ditto for the USA.

That's the internet, not the real world

I liveaboard full time on the hook the vast majority of the time when not in a boatyard, mainly around atlantic side for a good few years. Anchor balls are very common. You won't find many cruisers who don't have one rigged. Day trippers maybe don't, good indication of who might drag first

[harst56]

Everybody who doesn't should be banned from the water.
Regards Jaap

[Jason Flare]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyqaa6BX7HY

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . .Despite 31 pages and 460 posts I still have no sense that the use of an anchor shape makes a measurable improvement in collision rates with cruising-level vessels. . .

But we discussed this.


Measuring differences in collision rates is not indeed the only measure of value. You won't find data for probably any of the COLREGS having a discrete impact on "collision rates". All of these rules are part of a SYSTEM, which as WHOLE create greater safety.


The anchor ball improves situational awareness of other boats. Showing an anchor ball allows other boats to see at a glance whether you are on the move, or not, allowing them to concentrate on the ones which are moving, which might prevent situations like the recent Red Falcon collision where the ferry watch were concentrated on a sailboat to their port and missed the presence of a mobo to starboard.



And that's the reason why you are legally obligated to show one. Not because, by itself, it causes "measurable changes in collision rates". But because we live under rules which require us to signal certain things to other vessels, for the sake of situational awareness -- sidelights, so that our aspect is perceptible at night, motoring cones, so that others know we have the status of motor driven vessels, fishing shapes so that other know we have the status of vessels fishing, anchor balls, so that other vessels know we are anchored, and so forth. It's a SYSTEM. The system as a WHOLE will certainly reduce collision rates; you would be hard pressed to find data to show that any one aspect of this system, looked at in a vacuum, would do so, but that doesn't mean anything.


You would no more find data for this, than you would find any data to show that Rule 17(b), which requires the stand-on vessel to maneuver itself, when collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, reduces collisions in some statistically measurable way. This is just not, IMHO, the right question.