COLREGS - vessel under oars

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Lodesman, this is actually quite interesting - I freely admit that I am not conversant with the US inland regs - unfortunately (my bad)
The inland rules do not recognize CBD - Care to elaborate? It would seem to me that there are a number of instances where I can see a vessel could easily be CBD in inland waters - what should such a vessel fly if not CBD?

Evans summed it up nicely.
Here is a good link (USCG) that puts Int'l and Inland side by side - just check the pertinent rules (3, 18, 28):
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageNam...lesWithAnnexes

Originally Posted by carstenb

We have virtually no maneuvering room on those stretches and we certainly do feel "constrained by draft". For us this is a narrow channel - but for all the motorboats blasting by us - they don't realize this.

What should we fly? (assuming the motorboaters would recognize the signal -- which might be doubtful in many instances)

Your best bet is calling on VHF and asking for a "slow bell."

Originally Posted by Snore

However, as I learned COLREGS, COLREGS extends to all water navigated by ocean vessels- with the exception of the Mississippi and Western Rivers. In those rivers and the Great Lakes, Inland Rules apply. Those rules state a vessel under 20 meters shall not impede a larger vessel.

US Inland (and Canadian) rule 9 has unique requirements in those particular waters. The Inland rules apply to all waters landward of the demarcation lines, which can be a bit of a hunt to find. They're laid down in CFR 33 part 80. On the east coast they are at the seaward end of every channel that goes to the ICW.
Sorry I don't have a direct link, but this section is in the Coast Pilots, which can be downloaded here: https://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/nsd/cpdownload.htm

[Snore]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

US Inland (and Canadian) rule 9 has unique requirements in those particular waters. The Inland rules apply to all waters landward of the demarcation lines, which can be a bit of a hunt to find. They're laid down in CFR 33 part 80. On the east coast they are at the seaward end of every channel that goes to the ICW.

Lodesman

You are right, I re-read CFR and my recollection on that was wrong. This really lessens the value of CBD. CBD then only applies the 1-2 miles, or less, from the COLREGs line to the clear water bouy.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What is a "burdened boat"?

And why "rather than"?

You are, absolutely, obligated to, "be well prepared to get out of the way" -- that is the rule -- there is no "rather than".

Burdened??? Now really!

And one should NOT presume that a burdened boat, vessel if you prefer will yield the right of way regardless of "that is the rule."

Stop being picky, we all know you know everything so just follow the rules. And be sure to scream at the guy who either doesn't care or even know the rules but again you seem to know everything or at least try to make others think that

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by foggysail

... but again you seem to know everything or at least try to make others think that

Foggy, Dockhead has been patiently explaining the collision regs and the importance of following them for the past 20 pages (for the benefit of folks like me who have forgotten most of what we learned all those years ago). It's kinda difficult to explain anything without appearing to know and understand it all. I appreciate your viewpoint but on the whole, Dockhead has done a pretty amazing job, without much thanks. Maybe a return to the less combative mode of discussion would improve this thread once again.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Burdened??? Now really!

Yep, we've had a couple of recent posts in this thread where the posters had diametrically opposite beliefs in what "burdened" means.
On the one hand, you have this:
As a former member of the USCGA,I taught boating courses. We always taught that you give way to the burdened vessel. Which vessel is the burdened one is not necessarily determined by size or type of propulsion. It is determined more by which vessel has the least amount of maneuverability.

and then we have:
"you mean (I hope) that the burdened vessel gives way to the "priveligded" vessel."

Since the COLREGs has two well defined terms that cover this subject unambiguously ("stand on " and "give way" explained in Rules 16 and 17) , why would anyone want to perpetuate this confusion by continuing to use the term "burdened"?

And one should NOT presume that a burdened boat, vessel if you prefer will yield the right of way regardless of "that is the rule."

We've been through this one countless times already. "yield right of way" reveals two glaring misconceptions about the rules.
1. No one "yields" anything, they both do what they are obliged to do.
2. There are no "rights" - "of way" or any other kind under the rules, only obligations to do certain things

Stop being picky, we all know you know everything so just follow the rules. And be sure to scream at the guy who either doesn't care or even know the rules but again you seem to know everything or at least try to make others think that

Please, keep it civil! That's the kind of personal invective that got the last COLREGs thread shut down.

[NevisDog]

Fair enough, Foggy, but "burdened" and "privileged" don't mean a whole lot to folks like me and only serve to confuse. In this type of discussion, best to avoid those undefined terms that can easily be misconstrued by the less enlightened, non-American, whoever...

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yep, we've had a couple of recent posts in this thread where the posters had diametrically opposite beliefs in what "burdened" means.
On the one hand, you have this:
As a former member of the USCGA,I taught boating courses. We always taught that you give way to the burdened vessel. Which vessel is the burdened one is not necessarily determined by size or type of propulsion. It is determined more by which vessel has the least amount of maneuverability.

and then we have:
"you mean (I hope) that the burdened vessel gives way to the "priveligded" vessel."

Since the COLREGs has two well defined terms that cover this subject unambiguously ("stand on " and "give way" explained in Rules 16 and 17) , why would anyone want to perpetuate this confusion by continuing to use the term "burdened"?

We've been through this one countless times already. "yield right of way" reveals two glaring misconceptions about the rules.
1. No one "yields" anything, they both do what they are obliged to do.
2. There are no "rights" - "of way" or any other kind under the rules, only obligations to do certain things

Please, keep it civil! That's the kind of personal invective that got the last COLREGs thread shut down.

There is no question...at least to me... that a burdened boat/vessel is to give way to a privileged vessel (stand on). I know the rule, I also know too many times I have encountered situations where a burdened believes he is privileged. I continue to avoid such encounters and it is within my rights to waive my privileged status and convey my intentions by various means to the other vessel.

This topic is being nitpicked to ad infinitum.

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Fair enough, Foggy, but "burdened" and "privileged" don't mean a whole lot to folks like me and only serve to confuse. In this type of discussion, best to avoid those undefined terms that can easily be misconstrued by the less enlightened, non-American, whoever...

For $10 or less:

https://www.amazon.com/Navigation-Ru...vigation+rules


EDIT: All boats 40' and greater must have...required a copy onboard. I am into my second book to stay with the latest revision.

[four winds]

Ah. Now I have a better understanding of why the term "burdened vessel" should be avoided.

People think it refers to the stand-on vessel. And some even taught it to others. The mind boggles.

From the beginning of my self study of these topics (10 years ago), it seemed obvious to me it was a privilege to stand-on and a burden to give-way.

[NevisDog]

It may well be that USCG continues to use those quaint terms, burdened and privileged, but they don't apply in any other part of the globe governed by the international rules for preventing collisions at sea, so why would I want to read about them? They are outdated in the US and meaningless elsewhere.

[foggysail]

Dockhead--





Foggysail

[Exile]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

It may well be that USCG continues to use those quaint terms, burdened and privileged, but they don't apply in any other part of the globe governed by the international rules for preventing collisions at sea, so why would I want to read about them? They are outdated in the US and meaningless elsewhere.

I took & passed the basic & master's USCG captain's license courses and never heard those terms mentioned until these threads. No ambiguity in "stand on" & "give way" so I'll stick with those terms, thanks.

[jeepbluetj]

Heck... I don't remember "burdened" or "privileged" anywhere in the rules. Nor did I learn those terms 20 yrs ago when I took a ASA 101-103 class. I R N NGneer, I think I can read technical stuff kinda OK, or maybe not.

Dockhead understands language (and nuance within) at a pretty high level: It's what he does for a living. And he's right, IMHO.

Call it "stand on" and "give way" and it just makes more sense and follows the published rules. It really is a shame that every freakin colregs thread devolves into 40 posts about "my words are better than your words." Or even worse, "Just don't hit sht." Yup... That's great for jetski renters and all, but.... (they tend to hit sht)

The colregs are easily available. use the dang words in the colregs. They are (by international treaty) the freakin LAW. it's what folks like dockhead will be arguing about in the court case following a collision.

OnTopic: in my marina, vessels under oars are easily "more maneuverable" than powered vessels. (Sail under power or powerboats). It's one of the areas that the colregs seems to ignore a bit. I was hoping this thread would clear up exactly what the rules were (inland US.. Inside the demarcation. Or what it is for the rest of the planet) Ahh, nope. Not gonna clear that up at all....

OffTopic; On a recent trip over to Catalina, I saw (on AIS) a massive container ship change course about 5 mi away to take our stern. I was stand on (under sail, lit correctly, vis good), they were give way. Everything happened exactly the way it should have by the book. As an aside, it's _still_ kinda scary seeing that massive ship pass by about a K behind us. (It looks like its much closer than it is). Point is if I tried to take that beast's stern, we would have been much closer - the ship made a minor course adjustment that passed it behind us, I saw it on the AIS, and knew they saw us and were dodging. So I held my course. They followed the rules. I followed the rules. if I followed some non-existent rule like "big boats have ROW", I would have put us directly on a collision course after their minor course change.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by foggysail

For $10 or less:

https://www.amazon.com/Navigation-Ru...vigation+rules


EDIT: All boats 40' and greater must have...required a copy onboard. I am into my second book to stay with the latest revision.

So you have a copy? And still think that "it is within my rights to waive my privileged status and convey my intentions by various means to the other vessel.".?

Puhlease!. You have NO RIGHT to WAIVE anything under COLREGs. And you have no "privileged status". All you have is an OBLIGATION to stand on (assuming that by "privileged status", you mean that you are the vessel referred to in Rule 17).

Do you really think that you (as stand on vessel) have the "right" to sound two short blasts and turn to port?

Once again, this sort of language is DANGEROUS.
It causes misunderstanding as to a vessels legal obligations.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by jeepbluetj

OffTopic; On a recent trip over to Catalina, I saw (on AIS) a massive container ship change course about 5 mi away to take our stern. I was stand on (under sail, lit correctly, vis good), they were give way. Everything happened exactly the way it should have by the book. As an aside, it's _still_ kinda scary seeing that massive ship pass by about a K behind us. (It looks like its much closer than it is). Point is if I tried to take that beast's stern, we would have been much closer - the ship made a minor course adjustment that passed it behind us, I saw it on the AIS, and knew they saw us and were dodging. So I held my course. They followed the rules. I followed the rules. if I followed some non-existent rule like "big boats have ROW", I would have put us directly on a collision course after their minor course change.

That's not "Offtopic" at all. It is a perfect example why we should all be familiar with and follow COLREGs instead of making up our own rules about "law of tonnage", "waiving privilege", "giving way to the most burdened vessel" and all the other ill informed, dangerous concepts espoused by several people here.