sailboat railing: metal railing or metal rope?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Thirty some odd years ago the Naval Academy did an engineering study on lifeline failures/causes.
Their findings should be apparent to anyone with a passing knowledge of the forces involved.
The crux was that the vast majority of "lifeline failure" was the lifelines going slack because of flexation of the bow/stern pulpits, and that leads to stanchion failure.
If the lifelines cannot go slack then the stanchions cannot bend outboard.
Bow/stern pulpits need to be triangulated in such a way as to resist any forces that tend to collapse them in an inboard direction.
Another finding: Looking down the boat lengthwise, do the stanchions lean outboard?
If so it takes less force to collapse them outboard, just a relatively small amout of flex in the pulpits leads to failure.

I presume that study was on larger ships. On smaller sailboats, lifelines can certainly go slack and bend the stanchions inwards.



In my experience, the vast majority of problems with lifelines on the sort of vessels sailed by most forum members is the result of them being pulled inwards or upwards resulting in bending and damage to the stanchions/stanchion bases.
The geometry is obvious if you look at the way the lieflines curve around the vessel. Anything other than an outward force puts major stress on the two adjacent stanchions.

[Mr B]

I have two solid handrails across the front of my Cat, 25mm Stainless steel,
My offsider was leaning over to catch a mooring ball,

40 knot winds and about a metre and a half waves,

She leaned onto the railing on one side and it snapped completely off, Resulting in my first ever, MOB,

The welds on the bottom of the Rails was for show only, It was a wash weld, Looked pretty, But had no strength in them,

My posts down the side with wire thru them, Were all the same, Flimsy wash welds,

You wont know how solid they are untill you lean heavily on them,

[wingssail]

For a heavier vessel solid railings instead of wire lifelines would be safer and I think preferable. They should not interfere with sheeting of sails such as a spinnaker or code zero any more than normal lifelines however you must consider how you will tack the sail at the bow.

On our vessel in which we take care to keep it light we use dyneema lifelines. The extra weight of 80 ft of stainless railing was not acceptable.

We do however have a section of railing aft on which we mount solar panels.

With lifelines there is considerable extra stress on a stanchion if someone pulls heavily on the lifeline to climb up or falls against it. We ensure that the bases and backing plates are very strong. If someone says, "Can I pull on this?" I answer, "Yes, it is meant to be strong enough." In 35 years none have been broken that way.

[Montanan]

A tall [one meter high] solid rail on top provides for an excellent hand hold. While three taught lifelines of the sort illustrated in the attached picture should be spaced evenly below the solid rail to aid in snagging any wayward crew or passenger [or children] that might fall and thence slide towards the edge of the deck. The barbed lifelines mitigate against slipping between the lifelines better than the standard unbarbed lifelines found on most production boats.

Or so I have been told by my rancher / sailor friends.

If one adds insulators or non-conducive posts one can electrify the barbed lines, tends to keep pirates and thieves from boarding.

They also toss a lariat to catch a piling or a cleat when docking. Easiest way to attach a spring line from 10 meters away.

Yee Ha!

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Montanan

A tall [one meter high] solid rail on top provides for an excellent hand hold. While three taught lifelines of the sort illustrated in the attached picture should be spaced evenly below the solid rail to aid in snagging any wayward crew or passenger [or children] that might fall and thence slide towards the edge of the deck. The barbed lifelines mitigate against slipping between the lifelines better than the standard unbarbed lifelines found on most production boats.

Or so I have been told by my rancher / sailor friends.

If one adds insulators or non-conducive posts one can electrify the barbed lines, tends to keep pirates and thieves from boarding.

They also toss a lariat to catch a piling or a cleat when docking. Easiest way to attach a spring line from 10 meters away.

Yee Ha!

So who taught your lifelines and what did they teach them?

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

So who taught your lifelines and what did they teach them?

Home schooled by a prison yard teacher;

What we learned: Everything is T'aint Right, T'aint Fair, T'aint Fit, T'aint Proper



As to spell checking - Let me meme.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Home schooled by a prison yard teacher;

What we learned: Everything is T'aint Right, T'aint Fair, T'aint Fit, T'aint Proper



As to spell checking - Let me meme.

Hahahahahahaha Thats Hilarious,

[Cpt Mark]

I've had both and would never have metal or dyneema lifelines. If the metal rail is constructed properly with quality materials you're done barring an accident. They're solid.

As far as obstructing the sail my opinion is that if they are both the same height, the tube rail is better as there is nothing sticking up to catch a sail on. Don't remember ever catching a spinnaker on my old boat which had wire rope.

As far as making them, having them made a buddy a long time ago decided to be the 1st person I'd ever seen do this on his Tayana 37. He went to Home depot and bought a bunch of flexible copper tubing. Stretched it out on the top of his current lifeline post and marked where the posts went. Took it to the shop and said make these please. They did and dropped perfectly into place.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Aravind

Hi

Currently the schooner I'm purchasing has the standard 2-lines 50cm high railing that you see on most production boats.

Some cruisers that I fancy a bit, like for instance Amels, often have 3-line metal railings,, which are higher, and which I think to be safer for the children.

Will it be in the way with the assymetric spinnaker/code0 ?

Your thoughts?
thanks
A

While tube lifelines should be better I worry about a misplaced sense of security because of them. I consider all lifelines as a warning/ barrier; I never depend on them and brief crew likewise. Seeing racing "rail meat" leaning against them runs chills up my spine.

My sole experience was leaning up against my friend's lifeline stanchion and bent it badly. Luckly, he reacted quickly and saved me from falling overboard. I don't trust either.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MJH

While tube lifelines should be better I worry about a misplaced sense of security because of them. I consider all lifelines as a warning/ barrier; I never depend on them and brief crew likewise. Seeing racing "rail meat" leaning against them runs chills up my spine.

My sole experience was leaning up against my friend's lifeline stanchion and bent it badly. Luckly, he reacted quickly and saved me from falling overboard. I don't trust either.

If you ever owned a motorboat with decent tubular railings you’d never go back to the nonsense that passes for “ trip lines “ that pass for life lines on yachts

A good welded railing is far stronger then the wire as the horizontal tube adds to the whole strength whereas wire does not

Amel have it right

[Aravind]

ty for all the replies
I'll probably go for:

solid top rails with 2 or 3 ss lines in-between (depending of the height of the toe-rail, height 30inches
andprobably no netting, because they are 10yo and older
A

[PuttingDoctor]

I have been changing out top lifelines for 1” stainless rails for a few years. If your stanchions are 1” symmetrical then fittings will allow a continuous run up to 24’. The hand feel is very solid.
I’ve done 3 Irwin’s (38’ 43’ 46’) 1 Island Packet and 1 Leopard 39 cat. I had to replace the stanchions on the Leopard but lucked into bases that accepted the upright tube without replacement.
If you’re concerned about kids and or pets then adding netting is often the proper course.

[rslifkin]

I agree that tubular railings with a lower lifeline are the best option. But if they're impractical for any reason, good lifelines kept tensioned adequately and with strong stanchions will do.

My boat (power) has a mix. Solid rail for the foredeck and aft, but lifelines up the sides. Mine are all 30" tall, so reasonably secure and I keep the lifelines tight enough that it's no big deal to hold onto them like a railing.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MJH

While tube lifelines should be better I worry about a misplaced sense of security because of them. I consider all lifelines as a warning/ barrier; I never depend on them and brief crew likewise. Seeing racing "rail meat" leaning against them runs chills up my spine.

My sole experience was leaning up against my friend's lifeline stanchion and bent it badly. Luckly, he reacted quickly and saved me from falling overboard. I don't trust either.

We each have our own inner fears. Seeing my racing crew lined up on the weather rail is not one of mine; I have ensured that the lifeline system is strong and I depend on it, as do my crew. In 35 years of hard racing nobody has fallen off and in all that sailing no lifeline has failed for any of us on board.

BTW, none of my crew are "rail meat", they all have positions and responsibility.

[El Pinguino]

I think 'lifelines' is a dumb name as no way are they going to save anyone's life.
I think a new name should be found just as we started calling 'lifejackets' PFDs because they would keep you afloat but not necessarily keep you alive.

Mine are FSWR - swaged eyes at each end but secured with 'small stuff' lashings at the after end. Means they are easy to tension and you can - if trying to recover someone - cut the lashings and drop the lines to make things easier.
If you starting seeing rust staining on the wire where it exits the swage it is time to renew them. Mine seem to have a life of about 20 years or so.