question about cost:bottom job, sails, rigging???

[forsailbyowner]

[quote=Kanani;111003]3-strand nylon stretches like a rubber band. It will stretch up to 25% of it's original length. That's why it is used for anchor line. It takes the shock off of your ground tackle and helps eliminate the anchor being jerked out. It may be OK for your mainsheet but not for jib sheets or halyards.

The stretch is exactly why I like to use it for halyards and sheets. In a gust I would rather have the jib sheet stretch or the halyard stretch than put extra load on the canvas, seams and tackle. When the gust hits very often its common procedure to ease the sheets anyway. The 25% stretch is before failing which is around 5700 lbs for 1/2" When do you want that kind of tension on halyards or sheets? People just get brainwashed by advertisements claiming that high priced is best. For my money nylon wins hands down. Been cruising with my nylon running rigging for two years now and am very happy with the performance for the buck that Ive gotten.

[dustinp]

Thanks everyone. . .you have been most helpful! I am still planning on the survey, and now I plan to have the engine checked out aswell. I am planning to do ALL the work MYSELF, so I am a bit confused. . . I could tell from a few of your posts that you were clearly speaking in terms of DIY. . .my language, LOL. Anyway, Hunters do have a strong tendency to have a lot of blisters from what I hear, I am sure this boat would be no different. So with that in mind I am confident it will need more than just paint. . . but would the materials still run me 5K? I am getting a clearer picture here, but as a lot of you have mentioned I need to look before I leap, so, I apologize for all the questioning.

My previous assumption was that to buy a boat of this age and get it "ready" to cruise, I would have to spend moderate amounts of money in these "small/unforseen" areas some of you had mentioned, unless the boat had been re-done already. In which case, said boat cannot be purchased for under 50K. . . If my assumptions are correct, this is the basis of my logic. I really don't want a smaller boat and don't have 50K to spend right now. . .but I will over the course of the next few months. I am completely aware of the unseen costs I will find within this project but considered them to be nominal. At any rate, I picked the (from what I know) most expensive/most likely to need replacement (from what I know) items, just so I can see if this project is really worth it. . . Basically if the boat costs me 20K, I can do a lot of work to it for another 10K right? Then I would have a lot nicer boat than I could have purchased for 30K at the time. I just want to avoid spending/modifying back up to the original price of the vessel 45-55K. . . BTW my wife and I plan to live on the boat, and when sailing, it will just be the two of us. I know some equipment is just for convenience but since this will be our home I plan to convert it accordingly. . . Plus I am a very hands-on type of person. I figure this would be a great way to get experience/knowledge of sailboats and be best equipped to deal with any problems with the vessel at sea. . . Thanks so much for the input everyone. Dustin

[Kanani]

Dustinp,

IMO, too many people tend to make a huge deal out of blisters.

I have never seen a boat sink from blisters before. Almost all blisters are between the gel-coat and the first layer of glass. However, if left unattended, they can go deeper. If you have ever popped a blister open, you know that there is a strong acidic odor that comes from the cavity.

My recommendation would be to poke and prod at all of the blisters to be sure that there is no delamination. If you find any delamination (which is rare) you are in an entirely different ball game. In that case, consult the yard about stripping the hull and rebuilding it.

In most cases, the blisters are contained by merely grinding out a very small area (maybe 1/16-1/8" deep, slightly larger than the blister itself) where the blister is. You should be able to open and clean out 100 blisters in a day. Once you determine that you have a clean surface, (and there is no signs of delamination), allow the blister to "weep" for a few days. Clean the surface with acetone several times during the weeping process (this will help speed up the weeping). Fill and fair the holes with a polyester resin filler. Do about 1/4 of each side of the hull at a time. Let it cure for 24-hours then cover those spots with an epoxy primer (Epoxy will stick to polyester, polyester won't stick to epoxy). Paint the bottom and you are finished.

In some rare cases, you may find a few blisters big enough to require deep grinding. In those few cases, the hole must be built back up with fiberglass. That is something that you can do yourself. If you want instruction, let me know. I have done a lot of boats, in my time. That's one of the ways that I helped extend my cruising kitty through the years.

The next time that you haul out, you may find a few more blisters, treat them the same. Unless you have very severe and/or deep blistering, I would not recommend removing the gel-coat (unless you have delamination) and/or covering the bottom with epoxy resin. Some yards will try to talk you into it. I have seen that done many times, it is very expensive and the problem always comes back. My considerable experience has been, if a boat gets blisters, it gets blisters and nothing that you can do will stop it. It is not a serious problem, IMO if it is treated during each haul out. It only seems to become a problem through many-many years of neglect.

Believe it or not, your best defence against blisters is a dry bilge. Long story that I won't go into. There are a 1000 theories out there (do some research) but IMO, this is the one that works.

BTW, take a lot of pictures of your progress and compare the areas on your next haul-out.

[roverhi]

If it was me and I planned on cruising, I'd look for a late 60's, early 70's boat from a solid manufacturer like Pearson, Tartan, Bristol, C&C, etc. Boats in the mid 30' range come up at under $20,000 and as low as $10,000 quite frequently. Totally restored boats can be found under $40,000. With those boats, you will have a solid hull that you can have confidence of standing up to most anything. Depending on the maintenance, you'll have some issues with rigging, etc. but you'll have a solid platform and maybe a few thousand dollars head start. Interior volume is not as great as the more modern boats but they tend to be heavier, more directionally stable, and easier on the crew on long passages. Also, they don't have molded in interiors so modifications are more easier done and access to the hull for additions/repairs is way easier.

The key to living aboard and cruising is storage. You cannot have too much storage. Large open storage spaces, like hanging lockers, etc. are virtually uselss at sea. You will need to partition large spaces so everything inside doesn't end up a jumble. You will also need to make use of as much open space for storage as your creative mind can conjure. Open spaces in boats are just acceleration lanes to increase the damage to your body when you're tossed around at sea.

Last but not least, I don't care what boat you buy for $20,000, it's highly doubtful that you'll get it ready to cruise for anything near $10,000. I'm doing it now and I've long since gone into the 5 figure cost range. That's just on add ons, not any maintenance issues. Of course, I've never brought anything under budget. I wouln't worry about that, however. No matter what the cost, you'll get the money if you really want to go. My wife and I built a W32 from a bare hull while living in a VW bus with our dog and 7 puppies. Cruised and lived aboard for 4 years. Granted, we were young and stupid but It was an experience I've never regretted and still treasure.

BTW, new chain plates and standing rigging are really not all that expensive. 1x19 wire isn't all that expensive, Norseman/StaLok terminals are really easy to install and you can buy stainless strap and make the chain plates yourself. Personally, I'd have a machine shop do the chain plates as they can cut them with a shear in about a minute that would take you hours/days to do with hacksaw.

Aloha
Peter O.

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by roverhi

BTW, new chain plates and standing rigging are really not all that expensive. 1x19 wire isn't all that expensive, Norseman/StaLok terminals are really easy to install and you can buy stainless strap and make the chain plates yourself. Personally, I'd have a machine shop do the chain plates as they can cut them with a shear in about a minute that would take you hours/days to do with hacksaw.

Aloha
Peter O.

I agree about building your own chain-plates. S/S cuts and drills easily if you use the correct cutting fluid. I built all new chainplates myself (uppers and lowers) on my 45' ketch. I used 3" x 5/16", 316 S/S stock (you won't need anything near that heavy). I cut, drilled and bent it all myself. The only thing that I had done was any welding (mast heads) and the final electro-polishing. I don't remember the cost but it wasn't much.

The key is using S/S cutting fluid and a drill press. You must cut through without stopping on S/S. S/S is actually softer than mild steel. However, if you stop in the middle of a cut, the metal will quickly temper and make the rest of the cut nearly impossible. When you drill it properly, it is almost like drilling through hard wood.

I thought that the price of Norseman/Sta-Lock terminals were excessive. I found a guy that had a hydraulic press. I purhased the swages and pressed them on myself. I sailed the boat for 80,000 miles and never had a rigging issue.

[texwards]

This RI sail company has a quick online estimate tool: Cruising Direct Customer QuickQuote

Even if you don't use them, gives you a good idea of your price range (for sails).

[dustinp]

so I am getting the idea that all of this stuff can be done for a lot less money if you do it yourself and do some research. . .

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by dustinp

so I am getting the idea that all of this stuff can be done for a lot less money if you do it yourself and do some research. . .

Pretty much. It comes down to time for me. If you can wait a year to pick up the new [product x] you want, you can wait for it to go on sale, or find an almost-new one for free that some guy is getting rid of.

I'm sure if you looked at the boat yourself, there's bound to be some stuff on there that's totally worthless to you, so the longer you hang out in the marinas and boat yards, the more likely the inverse will be true and someone will be trying to offload something else you need.

I've come to understand that there's essentially two types of individuals down in a harbor. The people who buy boats, and the people who make money off of those people. The latter will convince you, through marketing, and referels from others that gave into the marketing, that you need x,y, & z in order to be happy and safe on your boat.

I'd say get the boat, and then take your time fixing things that aren't mission critical. Wait until you've gotten good enough to do some or all of the work yourself, and talk to people who (unlike boat yards and chandlerys) don't have a vested interest in you spending a wad of cash.

The first 60-90 days of owning a boat is expensive just by itself. You've got down payments for marinas, blisters to fix, sales tax, insurance premiums, etc. Owning a boat can be a lot of stress, and the joke that there's an endless list of stuff to work on is no joke at all.

I'll end with an example of the roller furling. I'm yanking mine off, beause I don't like it as much as a hanked on jib. With hanks, I have way more flexibility, and it's more simple. Maybe you agree and maybe you don't, but the point is that when it gets right down to it, I can sail just as far as you, with a roller or not. Try to separate the things that would be neat from the things that will send your boat to the bottom of the ocean if not working properly.

[dustinp]

So you think a boat that hasn't been out of the water and hasnt been sailed for 3 years and hasnt been painted for probably 5-10 years will still be ok down there when I get her out on the hard? So what should be my main areas of concern with this thing? I am gonna have the engine checked out, but I don't know if I will get a survey done, I know the bottom is gonna be in bad shape and I am already anticipating the work in the sails and rigging, etc. . .

Originally Posted by rebel heart

Pretty much. It comes down to time for me. If you can wait a year to pick up the new [product x] you want, you can wait for it to go on sale, or find an almost-new one for free that some guy is getting rid of.

I'm sure if you looked at the boat yourself, there's bound to be some stuff on there that's totally worthless to you, so the longer you hang out in the marinas and boat yards, the more likely the inverse will be true and someone will be trying to offload something else you need.

I've come to understand that there's essentially two types of individuals down in a harbor. The people who buy boats, and the people who make money off of those people. The latter will convince you, through marketing, and referels from others that gave into the marketing, that you need x,y, & z in order to be happy and safe on your boat.

I'd say get the boat, and then take your time fixing things that aren't mission critical. Wait until you've gotten good enough to do some or all of the work yourself, and talk to people who (unlike boat yards and chandlerys) don't have a vested interest in you spending a wad of cash.

The first 60-90 days of owning a boat is expensive just by itself. You've got down payments for marinas, blisters to fix, sales tax, insurance premiums, etc. Owning a boat can be a lot of stress, and the joke that there's an endless list of stuff to work on is no joke at all.

I'll end with an example of the roller furling. I'm yanking mine off, beause I don't like it as much as a hanked on jib. With hanks, I have way more flexibility, and it's more simple. Maybe you agree and maybe you don't, but the point is that when it gets right down to it, I can sail just as far as you, with a roller or not. Try to separate the things that would be neat from the things that will send your boat to the bottom of the ocean if not working properly.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by dustinp

So you think a boat that hasn't been out of the water and hasnt been sailed for 3 years and hasnt been painted for probably 5-10 years will still be ok down there when I get her out on the hard? So what should be my main areas of concern with this thing? I am gonna have the engine checked out, but I don't know if I will get a survey done, I know the bottom is gonna be in bad shape and I am already anticipating the work in the sails and rigging, etc. . .

Well, I guess what I'm saying is to make a distinction between what's going to be "okay", and what's going to be pretty / perfect.

I think you *really* should get the survey done, because that's where you're going to get a no-kidding 5-10 page write up of your boat, and what needs work where. You'll need a survey anyway for insurance, and you need insurance for any marina (and a lot of moorings).

The line in my signature is really the truth for me. I suppose I would go for this stuff first:

- Thru-hull fittings. Service them, and make sure they're solid.
- Rudder. Make sure it won't fall off.
- Packing gland. Make sure the prop won't fall out, and make sure it's not leaking (too much; some are supposed to leak a bit).
- Standing rigging. You need to keep the rig up.
- Hull. Paint it, and repair the blisters.
- Running rigging / sails. Well enough to get you moving around.
- Hell-deck joint. This needs to be solid.

Most of those (packing gland, as an example) is pretty easy to do for a novice as long as you follow the guides that are more than available. But you really should get a survey. It's you and a really smart boat guy combing over every inch of your soon-to-be-boat. I brought a video camera with me, and a notebook.

[Boracay]

My suggestion for the first haulout is to assume that it is going to be a big one. Expensive and time consuming. Choose your haulout operator on this basis. A travel lift might be preferable.

While in the water check the pitch on your prop by seeing how easily you can get max. revs. Run the engine at maximum revs and make a note of the engine revs and speed (use a GPS). Also check the hose tails, sea cocks and through hulls together with the internal rudder fittings and the stern gland to see if they are going to need repair in the next couple of years. Do not assume that if it is not on a surveyors report then it does not need fixing.

Look at the long range weather forecast and plan for 7 days of good weather. Make sure your slip manager knows that you will cancel if the weather is going to be bad (and will not charge you). Time lost to bad weather is going to be expensive and frustrating.

Line up all paint and other materials with a reliable supplier. Don't assume a small chandler will have your antifouling and other stuff right when everyone else is hauling at the start of the season.

Make sure that scaffolding, planks etc. are available and are safe.

When the boat comes out get the bottom paint stripped off as soon as possible. This is when you are going to find things like blisters etc. and you are going to need to let the boat dry a bit after they have been "popped". I found a few rust patches on Boracay.

Now take off the prop and get it repitched if necessary.

Do your repairs, antifoul and launch...

[forsailbyowner]

Heres a few prices from Salt Creek Boat works in St pete Fl to help your calculations. Haulout and launch, $10 per ft. Time on stands for do it yourself. $30 a day and $2 for power and water. Pressure washing and scrape, $2 per ft. Trinidad hard antifouling paint $150 gallon. Commercial ablative (forget name) $120 gallon. Their labor if you desire help $50 hr. zincs $7-$15 apiece. Tie coat for running gear, $30 qt. If they do the bottom they charge $30 per foot all inclusive. We did extensive blister repairs, fixed damaged fiberglass, ground whole bottom down to gelcoat, Ugh!!! took 7 days full time labor for one person, had some help from a friend for a few days. As stated before total yard bill with materials $1300 2 gals trinidad and 3 ablative pt tiecoat pressure wash 33' boat

[GordMay]

Calculating Bottom Paint:

Rule of Thumb for Underwater Surface Areas:
LOA x Beam x 0.85 = Wetted Surface Area

Sailboats:
8 ft day sailer = 120 square feet
21 trailerable = 160 sf
28 racer/cruiser = 250 sf
31 racer/cruiser = 270 sf
36 cruiser = 330 sf
41 cruiser = 435 sf
53 cruiser = 590 sf

Motor Boats:
18 runabout = 120 square feet
21 runabout = 150 sf
28 cruiser = 240 sf
32 sportfish = 300 sf
36 cruiser = 350 sf
42 cruiser = 500 sf
53 cruiser = 650 sf