Propane solenoid shutoff help

[Blue Stocking]

Pretty sure those fume detectors are ionization principle which detect a change in electric potential when the ambient atmosphere is polluted by a hydro-carbon.Sensitive smoke detectors work the same way. Not user servicable, as they say.

[kevmantra]

Most of the systems I have wired up use a sensor to warn if there is a build up of gas in the stove area or where the gas bottles are.If the sensor detects gas then it sends a signal to the controller which then activates the solenoid valve mounted on the gas bottle shutting off the gas .At the same time an led lights up and a warning buzzer goes off letting you know that there is gas leaking.When there is no gas present then the valve stays open and you rely on your taps on your stove to keep the gas in the lines.Cheers Kev.

[yachtcowboy]

Originally Posted by kennyarmes

I will check voltage with switch off. Good point. Tank is in well vented locker. Hard to get to but I shut off when sailing. Boat was rewired in 2012 and kept in fresh water so corrosion shouldn't be there but I will check.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

We redid our propane system completely, took all the copper pipe out, replaced it with certified propane hose with factory installed end fittings, put a new solenoid in, plus in stalled a BB-Q hose with quarter turn shut-offs on both hoses hut we close the tank valve EVERY time we use the stove or the BB-Q. The advantage of the quarter turn valves on both hoses is that we can use the stove and BB-Q independently or together. The solenoid only shut the fuel off to the stove. Simple system that took about a month of brain work to make it SIMPLE. We have used it extensively for the last year and love the safety and simplicity.

[darrelweb]

Yes, solenoid goes after the regulator. One other thing I have done on my boat is I have added a 45 minute kitchen timer between the on/off switch on my panel for the propane to the solenoid. Why?

This is a safety disconnect between the boats power panel and the solenoid. Many times folks have cooked dinner, drank too much wine, then hauled off to the berth.........the timer has to be turned on for 45 minutes of propane, or turned again if more cook time is needed.

It is just a plain 120 volt kitchen timer that you wind to start. It is wired between the power panel and propane solenoid and is just another layer of safety between the propane locker and your safety. I mounted my timer just to the left of the stove on the bulkhead leading towards the propane locker.

And yes, keep the propane bottles turned off with the manual valves when you do not need the gas.

This is my two cents worth.......
darrel

[kennyarmes]

Thanks for all the good advice I will check out this weekend when I'm at the boat

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[TrentePieds]

Ooooh! Never thot of it, but, yes, the timer trick is very apposite indeed. TrentePieds is gonna get one! Thanx Darrel :-)

[kennyarmes]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Did you check the power at the valve to see that it is actually off when the switch is off? You have to eliminate that possibility before condemning the solenoid valve. As others said, be CERTAIN the valve is oriented properly. You can also disassemble the valve to check for free movement of the core inside the tube that goes up into the coil. Also, even a small foreign body (grit, pipe dope) can keep the valve from seating, allowing flow when not energized.

And the winner is brewgyver
I checked and the power is on all the time. Thx

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[kennyarmes]

Ok it was the power on all the time. Now to figure out what is causing this

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by kennyarmes

Ok it was the power on all the time. Now to figure out what is causing this

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Hey Kenny, what kind of switch is it?
If it's a control with a fume sensor and alarm, like Trident or Xintex Fireboy:
The controller contains a relay and one or more sensors. In normal conditions, when the power is turned on, the relay is energized, closing the internal NO (normally open) contact, sending power to the solenoid coil, opening the valve, allowing gas to flow. When unburned gas is detected, it cuts power to the relay, opening the internal contact, removing power from the solenoid coil. Solenoid valve closes, shutting off the flow of gas.
More than likely, the internal NO relay contacts are welded in the closed position. If you have a meter (or test light with leads), disconnect power from the controller and check for continuity across the relay contacts. If you have continuity, the contacts are welded. If you don't, the control circuit itself is bad. Either way, you'll have to replace the panel.
Of course, if it's a simple breaker switch (Carling is a common one), it's the same fault, but cheaper to replace.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Hey Kenny, what kind of switch is it?
If it's a control with a fume sensor and alarm, like Trident or Xintex Fireboy:
The controller contains a relay and one or more sensors. In normal conditions, when the power is turned on, the relay is energized, closing the internal NO (normally open) contact, sending power to the solenoid coil, opening the valve, allowing gas to flow. When unburned gas is detected, it cuts power to the relay, opening the internal contact, removing power from the solenoid coil. Solenoid valve closes, shutting off the flow of gas.
More than likely, the internal NO relay contacts are welded in the closed position. If you have a meter (or test light with leads), disconnect power from the controller and check for continuity across the relay contacts. If you have continuity, the contacts are welded. If you don't, the control circuit itself is bad. Either way, you'll have to replace the panel.
Of course, if it's a simple breaker switch (Carling is a common one), it's the same fault, but cheaper to replace.

I am real old school. Even at that I doubt a relay. Even an SCR may be old school?

[kennyarmes]

Thank you everyone I got it fixed I hate to admit it but it was my own fault when I wired it I've fused it but forgot to go to the panel which left the circuit energized all the time instead of just replacing wires off of the old one which was the same kind I should have read the directions better and not assumed that they were exactly the same again thanks for everybody's help it was a good learning experience that could have been bad

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by kevmantra

Most of the systems I have wired up use a sensor to warn if there is a build up of gas in the stove area or where the gas bottles are.If the sensor detects gas then it sends a signal to the controller which then activates the solenoid valve mounted on the gas bottle shutting off the gas (snip)

??? That's backwards. In alarm condition the panel opens the relay contact, cutting off the power to the solenoid valve. The valve is a normally closed type.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by kennyarmes

Thank you everyone I got it fixed I hate to admit it but it was my own fault when I wired it I've fused it but forgot to go to the panel which left the circuit energized all the time instead of just replacing wires off of the old one which was the same kind I should have read the directions better and not assumed that they were exactly the same again thanks for everybody's help it was a good learning experience that could have been bad

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Tickled you got it fixed. It is great to see someone admit to an error.

When all else fails, read the instructions.

[Brewgyver]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I am real old school. Even at that I doubt a relay. Even an SCR may be old school?

Yes, I'm a bit old-school, too. I'm not really certain, but I'm used to seeing relays to control solenoid valves in other applications. The "flyback" spike from a solenoid coil will toast most transistor-type switching, including SCRs and MOSFETs.

While back on this topic, it's worth noting that some systems use high-pressure solenoid valves that MUST be installed BEFORE the regulator. If/when I have to replace mine, that's what I'm going to use.

And for those who point out that it's simpler to just turn the gas on and off at the tank, that is certainly true, but it's definitely NOT safer. A galley-mounted control, even if it's a simple toggle breaker without the sniffer control, is not just a convenience, it's the fastest way to cut off the supply of fuel gas if there's a fire. Imagine a gimbal-hung galley stove, a grease fire, or worse a cracked propane hose at the stove. By the time you get to the tank to close the valve, you could lose your boat.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

Yes, I'm a bit old-school, too. I'm not really certain, but I'm used to seeing relays to control solenoid valves in other applications. The "flyback" spike from a solenoid coil will toast most transistor-type switching, including SCRs and MOSFETs.

While back on this topic, it's worth noting that some systems use high-pressure solenoid valves that MUST be installed BEFORE the regulator. If/when I have to replace mine, that's what I'm going to use.

And for those who point out that it's simpler to just turn the gas on and off at the tank, that is certainly true, but it's definitely NOT safer. A galley-mounted control, even if it's a simple toggle breaker without the sniffer control, is not just a convenience, it's the fastest way to cut off the supply of fuel gas if there's a fire. Imagine a gimbal-hung galley stove, a grease fire, or worse a cracked propane hose at the stove. By the time you get to the tank to close the valve, you could lose your boat.

Probably a damn good idea to replace on the high side. I had a regulator blow and burn the hose off. Fortunately on an outdoor grill not in a locker.

It has been 43 yrs. since I have been hands on with electro mechanical equipment. As I said old school, I recall solenoids on equipment without a single relay. Now add 8 yrs. and vacuum tube to the old school.