Keelbolt Arrangement

[robwilk37]

getting rid of it and re-attaching the keel would be the last option i think. someone went to a lot of effort/expense to patch it up so this tells me the boat was way out of balance or was unacceptably tender.

dropping the keel is relatively cheap, you just need a travel lift. cost depends on the local rate. same with re-shipping. but again for me, thats not issue.

and of course the broker and designer dont think its an issue. dont understand why youd need to eat the deposit.

[Muaddib1116]

It depends on if this was done during construction or sometimes afterwards as a modification.

Yeah, I don't expect that dropping the keel or reattaching it are too big a cost, even if there's some fiberglass repair required for the faired area. I'd still like to get an approximate number for that operation. Depending on what that reveals though, could require replacing the keelbolts, so I'm also trying to get a rough number for that job. Is keelbolt replacement something that they can do at the yard? or does the keel have to be shipped to a specialist?

As far as the deposit, if the broker/seller want to keep it, they will argue that this is not a defect, and therefore I am in breach of contract if I walk away. Maybe they'll just be cool and understand my concern, but I can't depend on that for my decision making analysis.

[robwilk37]

post #13 i think answers that question. this is a patch/bandaid/juryrig whatever you want to call it. all told, done now

[Muaddib1116]

Haha, yeah, that's what I think. But as I've already said, I doubt that the seller thinks that way.

[donradcliffe]

The good news is that the inside of the stub looks clean and dry. Was the boat a fresh water or a salt water boat??

The stub keel is pretty heavy layup. The cavity was probably sheathed with a lot thinner layup. If you want to access the cavity with the steel plates, grind a hole though the sheath, rather than dropping the keel. You can probably figure out where to grind by tapping around with a hammer.

[Knotical]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

As far as the deposit, if the broker/seller want to keep it, they will argue that this is not a defect, and therefore I am in breach of contract if I walk away. Maybe they'll just be cool and understand my concern, but I can't depend on that for my decision making analysis.

Isn't there a stipulation in the contract that says you can walk away if you are not satisfied with the survey?

[robert sailor]

It's not uncommon when dropping a keel that the mast is also pulled. If there is any wind without the keel boats often can be very unstable if the mast is still up.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

It depends on if this was done during construction or sometimes afterwards as a modification.

Yeah, I don't expect that dropping the keel or reattaching it are too big a cost, even if there's some fiberglass repair required for the faired area. I'd still like to get an approximate number for that operation. Depending on what that reveals though, could require replacing the keelbolts, so I'm also trying to get a rough number for that job. Is keelbolt replacement something that they can do at the yard? or does the keel have to be shipped to a specialist?

As far as the deposit, if the broker/seller want to keep it, they will argue that this is not a defect, and therefore I am in breach of contract if I walk away. Maybe they'll just be cool and understand my concern, but I can't depend on that for my decision making analysis.

If it's a lead keel then the bolts or studs are cast into the keel when its poured. The end of the studs are usually formed in a J shape so it's not like pulling a stud from a cast iron keel.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The good news is that the inside of the stub looks clean and dry. Was the boat a fresh water or a salt water boat??

The stub keel is pretty heavy layup. The cavity was probably sheathed with a lot thinner layup. If you want to access the cavity with the steel plates, grind a hole though the sheath, rather than dropping the keel. You can probably figure out where to grind by tapping around with a hammer.

I'll give this some thought, but to be able to inspect all the bolts and and welds, I would have to open up a lot of it.

Originally Posted by navdi

Isn't there a stipulation in the contract that says you can walk away if you are not satisfied with the survey?

It all comes down to interpretation. The contract is in Swedish, but going off of my translated version, there has to be a substantial error or structural damage. Now obviously, I think this is a substantial error, but again, I doubt the seller thinks so. In that case, if he is set on keeping the deposit, it falls to me to try to recover it in Swedish courts. That may or may not be possible to some degree. But I have to assume that I will lose it.

Originally Posted by robert sailor

It's not uncommon when dropping a keel that the mast is also pulled. If there is any wind without the keel boats often can be very unstable if the mast is still up.

That's a good point that I had not thought of, I will be sure to factor it in. Thanks.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

If it's a lead keel then the bolts or studs are cast into the keel when its poured. The end of the studs are usually formed in a J shape so it's not like pulling a stud from a cast iron keel.

Yeah, I've researched it a little and there seem to be a few different methods, but the best seems to be to torch out the keel bolts from the side and position new ones and then pour new lead and reshape those areas.

[CassidyNZ]

Lockdown in New Zealand provides time to let the mind run.

The boat as you see it has the keel firmly in place, does it? It is 23 years old. What reason do you have to believe that the structure of bolts at the root are likely to fail? I guess I’m saying, what was it that had you looking at the keel attachment method other than coming across pictures of it during survey?

Sometimes it is easy to let the imagination regarding possibility govern logical thinking. If the keel is still securely in place after all that time, does the attachment method matter all that much? What opinion does the surveyor hold?

[Muaddib1116]

In response to some question that came from the survey, I was sent these pictures. I am not really concerned with the structure of the bolts. What I am concerned with is corrosion. My understanding is that corrosion can result in unexpected and sudden failure, even when things have been "fine" for a long time. Basically, there is a certain amount of corrosion risk with a normal keelbolt attachment method. This unusual setup adds a whole bunch of different risk avenues, and it seems impossible to inspect without dismantling. That is why I'm not fully comfortable with it.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Lockdown in New Zealand provides time to let the mind run.



The boat as you see it has the keel firmly in place, does it? It is 23 years old. What reason do you have to believe that the structure of bolts at the root are likely to fail? I guess I’m saying, what was it that had you looking at the keel attachment method other than coming across pictures of it during survey?



Sometimes it is easy to let the imagination regarding possibility govern logical thinking. If the keel is still securely in place after all that time, does the attachment method matter all that much? What opinion does the surveyor hold?

Forget about the bolts, the keel appears to be hung from a welded stainless structure that is external to the hull.

[Muaddib1116]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Forget about the bolts, the keel appears to be hung from a welded stainless structure that is external to the hull.

Yes, thus the concern.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Forget about the bolts, the keel appears to be hung from a welded stainless structure that is external to the hull.

Which would imply that the steel structure is visible from the outside? Sure doesn’t look that way from the pictures.

That the keel is attached to the boat via a stainless structure is patently obvious. My point is that the keel appears to be fitted to the boat without any sign of it coming loose or separating from the hull and has been that way seemingly for decades. Yes, I understand that such an unusual structure could invoke mild paranoia but it appears to be working.

The same mild paranoia could exist with standard keel bolt arrangements, not knowing how they’re attached to the keel, what condition they may be in where they can’t be see and so on. But generally a buyer would make a judgement call on what can be seen.

My point (again) is that the OP is making judgement calls based on pictures taken decades ago and not on what is visibly evident today.