How much weight can go on the mast ?

[Jim Jones]

I am interested in putting cameras on the mast.

I am considering 1 x thermal PTZ camera and 2 fixed day/night cameras along with IR illuminators that throw IR light out to around 300ft.

So my question is, how much weight can be hung off the mast ? There is a radar already mounted half way up the mast and that must stay.

I would think the mast top would be the best place to put cameras? I dont really know how much weight can be supported up there.

I need a wind instrument as well, so that has to be taken into account as well.

Then there are PTZ spot lights - one on each side of the mast.

I am concerned that this way too much weight.

Thoughts ?

[thomm225]

Well when I go up the mast to check on things that's adding 190-200 lbs!

I know it's not like the boat is moving / sailing, but still it lets you know the mast and rigging if in decent shape can usually handle quite a bit of additional weight.

[Manateeman]

Not just a question of weight but surface area...wind pressure ...as well. You have a beautiful, strong and very seaworthy boat. I don’t think it would matter if you were sailing with a manatee sitting on a spreader...Well maybe.
You could do the calculations but it’s very small in comparison to radar for example. Static is easy. The acceleration in ripping down big seas followed by a shock stop when you nosedive into the next wave...this creates forces up top that might dislodge whatever items you want to place there. I’ve seen stuff welded break loose when the boat slams into a wall of waves. We were on a steel supply vessel, banging into it...heard a crack and wondered what was that stuff now on the forward deck and where did it come from. You guessed it, our boat.
The forces on the top of a mast can be far greater than you think.
Mark

[Frankly]

in bygone days the crew would often hoist a cannon to the top of the mast to reduce rolling at anchor (probably before aluminum masts).

Might consider what could be located around the radar just to keep from making such an ugly mess at the masthead.


Frankly

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Frankly

in bygone days the crew would often hoist a cannon to the top of the mast to reduce rolling at anchor (probably before aluminum masts).

Might consider what could be located around the radar just to keep from making such an ugly mess at the masthead.


Frankly

I dont know anything about standing rigging, but I am replacing the whole standing rigging system - everything - every last bit of it. Maybe the spreaders too and depending how the mast looks when its stepped, perhaps that as well.

I suppose I really need to talk to professional riggers, but can the standing rigging be beefed up to cope with those loads on the mast head? Since I am going through this exercise anyway does it make sense to get heavier then usual rigging?

I suppose the chain plates need to carry this strain as well. This could be a bigger topic then I thought.

I do agree with wind loading though. I used to be in IT and installed many high end AP's and we had strict load limits that we could place on the towers. Its for this reason I am asking since I know nothing about standing rigging and what loads a mast will carry.

The higher up, the more stress load I suppose. IDK.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

I dont know anything about standing rigging, but I am replacing the whole standing rigging system - everything - every last bit of it. Maybe the spreaders too and depending how the mast looks when its stepped, perhaps that as well.

I suppose I really need to talk to professional riggers, but can the standing rigging be beefed up to cope with those loads on the mast head? Since I am going through this exercise anyway does it make sense to get heavier then usual rigging?

I suppose the chain plates need to carry this strain as well. This could be a bigger topic then I thought.

I do agree with wind loading though. I used to be in IT and installed many high end AP's and we had strict load limits that we could place on the towers. Its for this reason I am asking since I know nothing about standing rigging and what loads a mast will carry.

The higher up, the more stress load I suppose. IDK.

The rigging/mast can easily handle the weight of your camera, wind instruments, spot lights on the spreaders, etc, etc, etc.

I gave an extreme example to show what the mast and rigging can handle.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The rigging/mast can easily handle the weight of your camera, wind instruments, spot lights on the spreaders, etc, etc, etc.

I gave an extreme example to show what the mast and rigging can handle.

OK then. Good to know. Thanks for your advice. The thing i am absolutely dreading in my future sailing life is going up the mast!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Jones

OK then. Good to know. Thanks for your advice. The thing i am absolutely dreading in my future sailing life is going up the mast!

I just ordered a Mast Mate from 4yachts in Poland.

Prices are pretty reasonable.

I need to run a new topping lift line and replace the forestay and backstay, but I'll use the halyards as extra support for the mast before I go up.

https://4yachts.eu/

[kayakerChuck]

I doubt all the cameras, lights, and other accoutrement will weight more than 1 or 2 percent of your halyard loads.

No worries.

[Manateeman]

Hi again. Well you’ve asked several questions and I want to make sure we cover all of them. First, I really think you should talk to a naval architect, not a rigger.
You could learn how to do all the calculations from a book like Principles of Yacht Design but you have a strong ocean capable vessel already and the safety factors in the mast design, chainplates etc, are already pretty big. 5 or even 10 lbs at the top will change the numbers but not much.
Great to see you are willing to go new rigging. We suggest Sta-Lok so you can carry spares and fix it yourself. We like mast steps.
I’m curious about the cameras. Security? Something else?
We have two led floods on our bow to avoid pots at night. Thermal would be nice but out of our budget which is consumed by my manatee crew pizza parties.
Try to find someone who is experienced in offshore with a boat your size and go over all the major systems. Fuel, engine, controls, anchor, steering, safety.
For example, an old engine cable can fail and you loose shifting or throttle.
Walk around and think, what happens if x breaks...is it bad news or inconvenience. With regard to your spar, it’s pretty beefy and with all new rigging, you ought not worry about 5 lbs at the top. Well, if it’s secured strongly.
Mast climbing. Lots written already. Steps get rid of a lot of problems. The rock climbing equipment has come a long way so check it out. Just go up a bit at a time and then leave it to another day. Your pulse will drop if you are very secure and you kinda let your brain reset. A little bit higher every time. If you feel uncomfortable go down. Don’t wait till you start shaking. Some people actually enjoy it. Not me. Steps and two safety lines help but I’m more nervous going down. Don’t let anybody be under you where you can drop a tool that can bounce and do some real damage.
Last. Check everything out with your centerboard. Each part.
After you do and renew , please remember, your boat will take a lot more than you think and that a crew of blubber butts voted you most likely to succeed.
They know you are truly a prudent Mariner. Hats off gentlemen.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and the manatee crew.

[Jim Jones]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Hi again. Well you’ve asked several questions and I want to make sure we cover all of them. First, I really think you should talk to a naval architect, not a rigger.
You could learn how to do all the calculations from a book like Principles of Yacht Design but you have a strong ocean capable vessel already and the safety factors in the mast design, chainplates etc, are already pretty big. 5 or even 10 lbs at the top will change the numbers but not much.
Great to see you are willing to go new rigging. We suggest Sta-Lok so you can carry spares and fix it yourself. We like mast steps.
I’m curious about the cameras. Security? Something else?
We have two led floods on our bow to avoid pots at night. Thermal would be nice but out of our budget which is consumed by my manatee crew pizza parties.
Try to find someone who is experienced in offshore with a boat your size and go over all the major systems. Fuel, engine, controls, anchor, steering, safety.
For example, an old engine cable can fail and you loose shifting or throttle.
Walk around and think, what happens if x breaks...is it bad news or inconvenience. With regard to your spar, it’s pretty beefy and with all new rigging, you ought not worry about 5 lbs at the top. Well, if it’s secured strongly.
Mast climbing. Lots written already. Steps get rid of a lot of problems. The rock climbing equipment has come a long way so check it out. Just go up a bit at a time and then leave it to another day. Your pulse will drop if you are very secure and you kinda let your brain reset. A little bit higher every time. If you feel uncomfortable go down. Don’t wait till you start shaking. Some people actually enjoy it. Not me. Steps and two safety lines help but I’m more nervous going down. Don’t let anybody be under you where you can drop a tool that can bounce and do some real damage.
Last. Check everything out with your centerboard. Each part.
After you do and renew , please remember, your boat will take a lot more than you think and that a crew of blubber butts voted you most likely to succeed.
They know you are truly a prudent Mariner. Hats off gentlemen.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and the manatee crew.

Hi Captain Mark,

Thanks for your detailed post. Yes I am asking lots of questions on many systems. I've just bought this boat and will be doing a major refit to it.

The cameras are for security. I suppose they may be useful when nudging up to a rocky point or similar to get out of a blow, so that I can have situational awareness of the entire boat. First and foremost the cameras are for security though. Its not paranoia. I know the area I will be cruising well and the locals WILL be trying to board to grab whatever little bit they can from the deck/cockpit and make off with it. Occasionally we get something more nasty as well - bandits with AK47's. The place I will be cruising is shared among 4 countries. I can carry firearms in the country I am in, but not when we cross the border. So the best way to secure the boat and ourselves is situational awareness. I need to be able to see these guys approaching. Radar will help to some degree when they are a mile or two off. The thermal is the biggest asset though - I have another thread going about thermal and I think the camera I mention there is what I will probably buy. The thermal PTZ is 2Kg. Then I need a day/night camera on each side of the mast so there is no blind spot. I will probably go with the RAY cams for this job as the boat has an Axiom MFD and it will be interesting to see what RAY cams bring to the party. The day/nights will probably be looking almost straight down - the idea here is to be able to see the entire deck from bow to stern on both sides and as far as possible off into the water around the boat - if a small canoe or boat has come along side and guys are trying to board I need to know exactly where they are trying to board so I can respond.

The small IR illuminators on the cameras themselves are not that good. So I need external IR illuminators - I need the day/night cameras to be able to see well in the night, so lots of IR light from the mast down to the deck to drench the deck and surrounding areas in IR light. IR illumination is good because for all intents and purposes you cant see it when its lit, but the cameras get a great BW image to record. The thermal sees in the dark of course. So with a system like that I can have no white light at all yet still see all around the boat very well at night. I have to run with no lights burning at night - I need to move in stealth mode to avoid being a moving ATM machine on the water.

Of course the best course of action is not to be moving at night. But we still have to lay up somewhere and close to the coast is way more dangerous then being out in the middle of the lake. I am still thinking this through but at the moment the plan would be to heave too out in the middle of the lake at night and put out a drogue to slow down any drift and to help dampen out movement. The lake is 45 to 60 Klms wide, so to be 20 Klm off shore at night is probably the safest place to be - the only bandits that can hit us then have to have a boat to be able to make a withdrawal from the floating ATM Vs being close to shore where any guy thats had a few too many drinks and is feeling brave can try his luck.

So the combo of radar, thermal PTZ that does a patrol scanning the water for about 1Klm away from the boat and then the day/night cameras covering the entire deck under lots of IR illumination is about the best it gets. Its illegal to have drones here so thats out. Which is a shame because that would be another layer of security - to be able to fly a drone up to any suspect boat and get a good view of the situation as its heading our way would be very valuable. Security is about layers - there have to be multiple layers of defence they have to get through before they can get up close and personal. The absolute number one thing which is the most important thing of all is not to be caught by surprise. Ask me how I know

Then I want to have PTZ spot lights on the mast so that when the SHTF I can light up the boat like Christmas. I want to be able to steer the light to where it is needed, hence PTZ spots.

So that's why I am asking question's about the mast - I have never done this before and there are lots of very experienced people here. 2Kg for the thermal PTZ, the weight of the 2 x day/night RAY cams, the weight of the 2 x PTZ spot lights add up.

I am replacing the standing rigging because the people who sold the boat to me had a blog online about thier travels. Every failure they experienced was related to the standing rigging in one way or another. They detailed how they patched up the standing rigging in various places along the way. Given that history I am taking the mast down for inspection, and replacing the standing rigging 100%. Every cable, clamp, nut and bolt. I want to replace every part that I can so that I start out with a clean sheet. The only thing I want to be worried about out there is bandits creeping up on me at night - not trying to pick up the mast out of the water and figure out how to limp back home in that state.

And then the dreaded mast climbs that WILL need to be done as time goes on. As for mast steps - do i put in rigid aluminium steps or go with the system that Thom225 mentions ? Either way, I think its a good addition to add while the mast is down.

What else should be done to the mast while its down? I am not sure what pulleys/bearings are in there, but whatever is in there will be replaced. I was told that there is some sort of cassette of pulleys in the mast and that could be replaced - but I dont really know at the moment. Going to find out though. If the mast has any cracks in it then I will replace the mast itself.

As for the rest of the boat - there is a long list of things to do. I plan on taking the engine out of the boat so I can decide what to do with it. Once the engine is out then I can get back into that area to inspect everything and change out what I can - sea cock/s, thru hulls, hoses, clamps, cables. Then clean the whole area up.

I want to put in some sort of system where the engine acts as a genset. So this will mean either adding a large frame high output alternator and wake speed regulator OR possibly something like the Integral system. The integral system is quite pricey but so is putting in a large frame high output alternator by time its all said and done. I am guessing around 7-8K for the high out put alternator system Vs around 16K for the integral system.

Its really hugely important to me to be able to produce enough power from the engine so I have to do something re the high output alternator as I DO NOT want an external genset onboard. In the first place - no room for it and secondly its heavy and trouble prone. And another thing to steal. Better I concentrate all my maintenance efforts on one main engine. Enough people have gone this route now that its well understood and seems to work well enough.

Then I have to put in an invertor system and Lithium battery bank. So all this ties in together. Whilst doing all that I am going to go over the boats electrical system as well.

I want to do some serious update work on the interior as well. I would like to pull out the galley section and give it a complete re-do. I am hoping that this will give me access to the tanks as I want to pull them out for inspection, clean out and any repairs they need (in the blog the wife mentions the horrible smell of the leaking diesel tank). For my needs I need more diesel storage then freshwater (since I will be operating on a freshwater lake) so I want to rework the tank system. I guess I will need another thread on tanks but i am wondering if it makes sense to put bladders inside of the tanks? The existing tank can simply be used as a strong box to enclose the bladder in. Not sure if this works or not but if it does its a way to make sure that there will not be any diesel leaks again.

Then we get to refrigeration. The boat has an ice box system. I am thinking of taking that out and putting in a commercial grade SS refrigerator that runs on mains power 230v/50Hz. Hence the invertor system/LiFePO4 batteries/alternator systems. I want to take out the gas stove and replace it with an induction cook top and a Breville 3 in 1 oven (micro wave/air fryer/ convection oven). As well, a BBQ that uses charcoal to hang off the back of the boat - if the invertor/s fail we can revert to cooking on charcoal if we need to. Happy to be getting rid of the gas onboard. One less system to have to maintain or go wrong. When the gas goes wrong it goes wrong with a large BOOM!

Not related to all this, but I have a place in the bush where we go stay from time to time and its not much more then camping up there. I have mains power connected to the place and recently put in an air fryer up there. OH MY GOD - what a game changer !!! So simple to put a steak into the air fryer and walk away and come back 40 mins later to a steak very nicely cooked. I can cook fries, heat things up, cook sausages, eggs...just about anything. The other day I cooked a rack of pork in it and it was perfectly cooked. No need for a conventional oven any more. So that experience can be carried over to the boat. I really dont think we need the gas oven/cooktop that the boat is fitted with anymore .


Anyway, this post has turned into a mini novel already so will leave off here.

Suffice to say there is much to do to my new mistress. Why oh why is keeping a mistress always so expensive lol.