Bad News - Wet Balsa Core

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by smj

You didn't answer my question, how do you determine how wet and how much damage? Is it an educated guess or is there no sure fire way other than cut into the skin and then determine the scope of the job? Is there a meter you can use that will give accurate measurements of the percentage of water in the core or are you taking an educated guess with the amount of moisture showing up on a napkin?

Without taking actual core samples one must rely on experience and judgement.

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.

No meter can determine moisture percentage.... period.
Again suggest you read Moisture Meter Mythology.

My Wife does all the soundings and moisture metering in our surveys. She has an ear for it (I'm pretty good but she is better) and has never been wrong. To gain that experience one must sound and meter hundreds of boats and get to see them opened up afterwards in order to learn what the sound and the meter are actually saying.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Drill core samples and squeeze them between your fingers. If your fingers are wet replace the core.

That's the way I would do it


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[smj]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Without taking actual core samples one must rely on experience and judgement.

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.

No meter can determine moisture percentage.... period.
Again suggest you read Moisture Meter Mythology.

My Wife does all the soundings and moisture metering in our surveys. She has an ear for it (I'm pretty good but she is better) and has never been wrong. To gain that experience one must sound and meter hundreds of boats and get to see them opened up afterwards in order to learn what the sound and the meter are actually saying.

Thanks, you've answered my question, it would be an educated guess. In my opinion there is only one correct way to do it and that is remove and replace the wet core rather than hoping you found a pro and not a schmo as I'm sure there's sometimes a fine line between the two.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by smj

Thanks, you've answered my question, it would be an educated guess. In my opinion there is only one correct way to do it and that is remove and replace the wet core rather than hoping you found a pro and not a schmo as I'm sure there's sometimes a fine line between the two.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Not an unreasonable position.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by smj

Thanks, you've answered my question, it would be an educated guess. In my opinion there is only one correct way to do it and that is remove and replace the wet core rather than hoping you found a pro and not a schmo as I'm sure there's sometimes a fine line between the two.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

You are entitled to your opinion and what you do to your boat is your business, I really couldn't care less.

I do object to the notion of suggesting to others that if their core reads elevated moisture levels that it is necessary to remove and replace the core. It isn't, it never has been, and it never will be. Core must only be replaced if it is not sound. "Wet" vs "sound", two different things, but core can be both (and in fact, is the case on most cored boats over 20 years old.

On my moisture meter, a dry area can read 0.00 to 15.00. A reading of 85.00 gets my attention, and I investigate. A reading of full scale 100.00 often indicates bad core. A reading less than 85 between a wet and a dry spot, does not usually have to be removed. It will have some moisture in it, but will not detrimentally affect soundness (as long as the source of moisture ingress is stopped).

I could very easily tell every customer whose deck I inspect that has a reading higher than 15, that the core has to be removed and replaced. This would be a disservice. Instead, I remove the offending fitting, and reach in with tools to see how far the damaged core (if any) goes. If it doesn't go beyond my reach I seal it up, fill the void, rented the fitting, and save the customer a ton of money compared to peeling back deck and replacing all wet core. Of course I will do that if the customer wishes all wet core be removed and replaced. If I tell them that in my opinion it isn't necessary, but they wish to pay me to go ahead and do it, to ease their mind, I'll gladly oblige. It is their boat, and as long as they are decent, I take pride in helping them fix up the boat the way they want it (within the limits that I will tie my reputation and business goals to their request).

[smj]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

You are entitled to your opinion and what you do to your boat is your business, I really couldn't care less.

I do object to the notion of suggesting to others that if their core reads elevated moisture levels that it is necessary to remove and replace the core. It isn't, it never has been, and it never will be. Core must only be replaced if it is not sound. "Wet" vs "sound", two different things, but core can be both (and in fact, is the case on most cored boats over 20 years old.

On my moisture meter, a dry area can read 0.00 to 15.00. A reading of 85.00 gets my attention, and I investigate. A reading of full scale 100.00 often indicates bad core. A reading less than 85 between a wet and a dry spot, does not usually have to be removed. It will have some moisture in it, but will not detrimentally affect soundness (as long as the source of moisture ingress is stopped).

I could very easily tell every customer whose deck I inspect that has a reading higher than 15, that the core has to be removed and replaced. This would be a disservice. Instead, I remove the offending fitting, and reach in with tools to see how far the damaged core (if any) goes. If it doesn't go beyond my reach I seal it up, fill the void, rented the fitting, and save the customer a ton of money compared to peeling back deck and replacing all wet core. Of course I will do that if the customer wishes all wet core be removed and replaced. If I tell them that in my opinion it isn't necessary, but they wish to pay me to go ahead and do it, to ease their mind, I'll gladly oblige. It is their boat, and as long as they are decent, I take pride in helping them fix up the boat the way they want it (within the limits that I will tie my reputation and business goals to their request).

As you should have noticed I've never made mention of readings of elevated moisture levels just what to do if the actual core is wet. And once again you haven't answered my questions. I do however notice that you refer to wet core as damaged core which is correct.
You are entitled to your opinion and how you run your business is really your business. But since this is a public forum and people come here for advice then you should expect some differing opinions. Yes you can leave moisture in the core, but the correct thing to do is remove it or if at all possible dry it out so as it doesn't continue to be an ongoing problem.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by minaret

I did explain how to do this job from the top with no color matching, blending, finish fairing, spray painting, gelcoat application, etc. just a few posts before yours. Was it just too technical/obtuse a post? I often wonder, as it seems few understand what I'm trying to say and post things which make it clear they didn't read my post or didn't get it shortly thereafter. Often.

I didn't see your post. Simple as that.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I didn't see your post. Simple as that.

Yes. Yet there have been two or three posts since by others (at least) that fall into the same gap.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by smj

As you should have noticed I've never made mention of readings of elevated moisture levels just what to do if the actual core is wet. And once again you haven't answered my questions.

Already posted this several times, please read my prior posts in this thread.

I do however notice that you refer to wet core as damaged core which is correct.

Absolutely incorrect. I have posted several times that a wet core can still be sound and not require any action other than to prevent further moisture ingress. Are the comprehension problems intentional?

You are entitled to your opinion and how you run your business is really your business.

Yes, thank you.

But since this is a public forum and people come here for advice then you should expect some differing opinions.

I do expect differing opinions, I object to suggesting those opinions are correct and mine incorrect when I know this to be false.

Yes you can leave moisture in the core, but the correct thing to do is remove it or if at all possible dry it out so as it doesn't continue to be an ongoing problem.

See this is the problem; removing or drying wet core is not necessarily the "correct" thing to do for the following reasons:

1. It may not be necessary at all.
2. The efforts may actually devalue the boat (accounting for about 90% of the DIY work like this I see every day.)
3. There may be more important things for the owner to focus their maintenance time and budget on.

9 times out of 10, the detection of core moisture ingress without signs of core damage should result in:

1. Remove and rebed offending fittings immediately.
2. When time permits, consider removing fittings, resin potting mounting holes, redrilling, and rebidding.
3. Monitor the areas for soundness (as one should do for the whole boat regularly anyway).
4. If future core damage is detected, repair it.

I have seen many cases, where owners have ripped out wet core that was perfectly sound, and wrecked the boat in the process, not having the necessary knowledge, skills, patience, or budget to do it properly.

These efforts were a waste of time and money.

I have seen many cases where moisture ingress was stopped, and despite being wet but still sound, the existing core remained sound, years and years and years later.

So please, removing and/or drying wet core is not the one and only action nor necessarily the "correct" action.

But by all means, I recommend that you have a SAMs or NAMs certified surveyor measure your boat, and if any elevated moisture readings are detected, haul it out, cut it apart and fix it immediately, because in your opinion, that is the only "correct" thing to do.

Have fun in the yard; I'm going sailing today, knowing full well there is elevated moisture in my decks and darn near every 20+ year old boat on the water.

[smj]

Enjoy your sail!

[AJ_n_Audrey]

All, I just came back to this thread because I've finished three other projects, and now I'm looking at this as possibly next. I really appreciate all the differing viewpoints, from "don't do anything" to "remove the whole cockpit sole" (and by the way, it's the cockpit sole, not cabin - the cabin sole has already been replaced). I am now leaning toward taking the boat to a pro, because I am now fully aware of my limitations......

[Suijin]

AJ, it’s not rocket science but it is time consuming for the novice and there are elements of craftsmanship involved that are not immediately obvious until you’re in the middle of it. If you have the time and the wherewithal to do some research and some scratch material testing you can pull it off.

That said a pro job is going to be done much faster and likely with a superior result