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model 10 · 21-06-2013, 17:57

I can't believe that the bottom cleaning experts can handle the idea of Echinacea any more than they could handle Caspian. So I'm sure it does not work.

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 18:01

What testing criteria have Proline asked you to use?

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy

I can't believe that the bottom cleaning experts can handle the idea of Echinacea any more than they could handle Caspian. So I'm sure it does not work.

It's not echinacea, smart guy. It's a proprietary biocide called "Econea." I've been involved with econea/zinc paint testing up here. Let's hope Roy's product works better.

S/V Illusion · 21-06-2013, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstbttms

The charter industry isn't particularly interested in using what's best. They're interested in using what's cheap.

But hey- it's your dime. Knock yourself out.

Economics 101

"Cheap" is always more expensive. The cost of using inferior paints far outweighs whatever savings they derive from cheap paint. They wouldn't stay in business long making poor choices on such simple things but I hear an echo again...

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Economics 101

"Cheap" is always more expensive. The cost of using inferior paints far outweighs whatever savings they derive from cheap paint. They wouldn't stay in business long making poor choices on such simple things but I hear an echo again...

Having serviced many charter fleets in my time, I can tell you from personal experience that they typically don't spend big dollars on bottom paint.

Roy M · 21-06-2013, 18:56

fstbttms: I was given no specific testing criteria. My diving service, OMNI in San Diego, like you is on the cutting edge of bottom paint testing and performance. Having been a boatyard manager, I know how polluted our harbor waters have become, and I know why. I appreciate the efforts made by you and other marine industry professionals who are trying to make our water world as healthy as possible. Omni will be checking out the performance and durability of the paint, because many of us in San Diego are trying to do the right thing. Bruce, the owner, has been a big help, working with boatowners, marina managers and boatyards to reduce copper residues in the bay mud and waters. No one here has all the answers, we're trying to make things better than they have been in the past. There will always be people negative to the concept of pollution control and healthy environments. All we can hope for is that number begins to diminish before the sealife and the ocean are permanently damaged. So, thank you for your efforts to improve the situation.

Roy M · 21-06-2013, 19:08

fstbttms, thanks for the update. Here is some technical info I found from the producer of econea: http://www.janssenpmp.com/download/35/antifouling. The Interlux version is half the concentration (3%)that the newer Sherwin-Williams formulation (the US Navy mix 6.7%). The manufacturer's rep told me this stuff should last two years for a single coat, and four for a double coat (which I had done). He claims it will need only a light wipe with carpet to remove the slime, after several months of no cleaning. My diver will be monitoring this for me. I'm going to be pulling the boat in a few months to reinstall my new centerboard, so I'll have some pics, as well.

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 19:10

Great post, Roy. Omni Precision Diving (like FastBottoms Hull Diving) is a member of the California Professional Divers Association. And like my company, are all about reducing the hull cleaner's environmental impact and extending the life of the customer's anti fouling paint, as you know.

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy M

The manufacturer's rep told me this stuff should last two years for a single coat, and four for a double coat (which I had done). He claims it will need only a light wipe with carpet to remove the slime, after several months of no cleaning.

As you undoubtably know, paint manufacturers claim great things for every product they produce. The reality is that few of them live up to the hype. I will be very interested to hear what Omni has to say about how a 2-month cleaning frequency works for this product in SD.

Rubikoop · 21-06-2013, 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

As my daddy used to say, "Don't bother trying to teach a pig to sing; it just frustrates you and annoys the pig."

First hand experience in the charter industry is good enough for most of us.

I was chuckling at some "expert" responses and had decided not to waste my time on a response. Your reply made me laugh and reminded me of a saying I'd heard long ago. "Wrestling with a pig in sh$t is like arguing with a fool, even when you are winning you soon discover you are covered in feces and realize the pig is having fun."

I've no idea how US charter companies operate on the Pacific, nor will I claim to be an expert how things are done 3000 miles away. Around here they try to keep overhead low. If $350/gal bottom paint decreased total expenses when compared to "little known brands" at far less than $200/gal, they would use it!!! Last time I checked, there was bottom paint available for under $100/gal that didn't work in the local warm waters worth a hoot and nobody who knows better uses it. FYI, today while I was at work at one of those ignorant charter companies that's been in business for 30 + years, I learned that one of the competitors is also using Sherwin Williams paint and has been for 3yrs. Clearly another charter fleet making poor financial decisions. They've only been in business since 1977... For the mathematically challenged, I'm describing two companies that have a combined total of 66 years in the charter fleet business and they've independently come to the same conclusion on bottom paint.

Rubikoop · 21-06-2013, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Economics 101

"Cheap" is always more expensive. The cost of using inferior paints far outweighs whatever savings they derive from cheap paint. They wouldn't stay in business long making poor choices on such simple things but I hear an echo again...

Ding, ding, ding!!! We have a winner!!!

Rubikoop · 21-06-2013, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy M

fstbttms, thanks for the update. Here is some technical info I found from the producer of econea: http://www.janssenpmp.com/download/35/antifouling. The Interlux version is half the concentration (3%)that the newer Sherwin-Williams formulation (the US Navy mix 6.7%). The manufacturer's rep told me this stuff should last two years for a single coat, and four for a double coat (which I had done). He claims it will need only a light wipe with carpet to remove the slime, after several months of no cleaning. My diver will be monitoring this for me. I'm going to be pulling the boat in a few months to reinstall my new centerboard, so I'll have some pics, as well.

Thank you for your informative post.

WARNING, heavy sarcasm to follow that is not directed towards you. :-)

Oh my goodness!!! Sherwin Williams bottom paint might actually work? Say it can't be. They don't spend enormous piles of money for full page pretty adds on every sailing magazine. Not many people apparently know about it. How can it possibly work? It doesn't cost hundreds of dollars per gallon perhaps because its not loaded with expensive copper and those pesky advertising dollars aren't being spent either. This just can't be true!!! The resident bottom paint wizard on this forum refuses to endorse it so it can NOT be an effective alternative option... You might as well cancel your testing now and pray you don't inadvertently type echinacea when you meant econea or prepare to be ridiculed.

I'm done now. :-). Clearly I was bored for a few minutes and lacked some self restraint. Lol

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubikoop

FYI, today while I was at work at one of those ignorant charter companies that's been in business for 30 + years, I learned that one of the competitors is also using Sherwin Williams paint and has been for 3yrs

Thank you for making my point. You've confirmed that the charter companies are using the cheap stuff.

fstbttms · 21-06-2013, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubikoop

You might as well cancel your testing now and pray you don't inadvertently type echinacea when you meant econea or prepare to be ridiculed.

BTW- your buddy "Guy", in his haste to try and put me down didn't "inadvertently" type echinacea instead of econea. He typed echinacea because he didn't know the difference between a plant extract used as a cold remedy and and a chemical compound developed for use as an anti fouling paint ingredient.