Advice on design choices

[SV_Wildfire]

So let me start with a little back story. I have wanted to build my own ocean going cruising sailboat for most of my life, and find a great deal of value in building things with my hands and seeing the fruits of my labor. As we all do I started out wanting something ridiculously high maintenance and impractical. (Think 45' custom cat with bow thrusters and an onboard SCUBA compressor) As I sailed more and got more experience over the last 18 years I realized the impracticality of solo sailing it on Jack Sparrowesq adventures, much less building it in my parents backyard with lumber from Home Depot Since then I have become more realistic and I found that I really like single-handing boats in the 34' to 38' range and as such have looked at plans for every type of sailing craft that can be owner built including Horstman, Brown, Piver, Schionning, Grainger, Dix, Bruce Roberts, everyone. All the designs I looked at were either too much of a compromise, just didn't speak to me or were no longer available. Then I recently discovered that Van De Stadt makes plans in this size range and came highly recommended.

And that brings us to my current predicament that I would like input on. After looking at two different designs by them (VDS34, Forna 37) and asking them a lot of questions I am coming to a deadlock and would like some input as I don't have as much bluewater experience as a lot of y'all.
Van de Stadt Design - Van de Stadt 34 https://www.stadtdesign.com/designs/...an_de_stadt_34
Van de Stadt Design - Forna 37 https://www.stadtdesign.com/designs/..._sail/forna_37

Both designs have a choice of
3-4 different keel options ranging from a deeper fin to a shoal draft centerboard with a twin rudder setup
a choice of masthead or 7/8 fractional rig
scoop transom
wheel steering or tiller (Tiller on 34 only)
hard dodger with or without the mainsheet on top
and of course you do your interior but the standard layout is a really good setup

I am trying to decide between these two designs and their options and I am leaning more towards the VDS34 with
shoal draft and centerboard with twin rudders
masthead rig
scoop transom with propane locker in an integrated step
wheel steering
hard dodger with mainsheet on the top
and just a couple cosmetic things on the interior

I'm leaning more towards the 34 than the 37 due to the unknown factors of cost, learning curve, building space available and quite simply the more I look at it the more I like it. My main question is what do those with a lot of bluewater experience think about the choices I'm considering. I know that all boats are a compromise and that each person has their own opinion, but I was wondering what peoples experiences have been with the different options available for this design on their own boats and what is a good idea on paper vs a good idea in reality. I know this is long but I really do want to hear from y'all and see what you think.

[coopec43]

Two points:

Which is more important- to sail a yacht or build one? If the ultimate aim is to sail it would be far cheaper to buy a good second-hand yacht than to build one.

Which is the best yacht for you? That's a bit like asking which is the best car: it depends..........

[Michael Cobbe]

Our long distance boat was 38 feet with a normal rig not fractional, it's a bigger sail area.


Go with the deeper keel otherwise you willl sail further offwind when going upwind.

[Benz]

Nearly every style of boat has been successfully sailed in the ocean, and has its ardent proponents, so opinions from the internet have very little value. My preference, without judging others' choices, is toward simplicity. Moving parts underwater are failure points, so I limit mine to one rudder, hung abaft a full keel. If you want to save costs by doing all your work, you'll be better served with a rig design you can easily assemble and service yourself. For me, that was a gaff-headed pilot cutter. I could go on, but bottom line: keep it simple and limit failure points (wheel/cable steering is another). Check out Paul Gartside's designs for modern drawings of full-keel cruising boats that turn the head and tug at the heart.

[LakeSuperior]

When the hull is completed you are 1/3 of the way through the project. My father spent 20 years building a strip plank teak on white oak 37 ft yawl. He built it in a shed in the back yard.

He sailed it for 15 years on Lake Huron and then gave to me as he was tired of maintaining it. I have sailed it for 25 years. It is a work of art.

As you said you are going up learning curve both on boat building and yachting. Perhaps consider buying a junker with a solid hull and doing a major refit. On completion of the refit/rebuild you will be much better informed to make the trades and decisions to build from scratch. Just a thought here.

BTW, 90 percent of the home builders never get the boat in the water. At least that is a number from the 70's.

[SV_Wildfire]

Thanks for the response Coopec
I have considered getting a solid hull and doing a complete refit, a friend of mine has a Cal that he may sell and if I can buy her then I'm going the refit route. which is why I'm waiting until he makes his decision on whether or not to sell her before I buy the plans.
If I could just get rid of everything and sail off tomorrow I wouldn't even consider building, but I have shoreside obligations and promises I have made to my wife and my father that will keep me from sailing into the sunset for the next 20-25 years provided that nothing goes horribly wrong or I win the lottery. On the plus side though that means that I have a long time to build a really top notch boat and spend time sailing on protected water and making any changes I want to.

[SV_Wildfire]

Thanks LakeSuperior, that sounds like she is a beautiful boat! I hope to be able to give mine to my kids and grandkids one day.
I appreciate the concern for finishing the project, I had the same thought which is why I'm looking more at the 34 than the 37. John Marples actually gave me the sage advice that there are a lot more 34' boats that were actually completed and out sailing than 38' boats when I was looking at Searunner designs.
I grew up helping my dad build stuff on the farm and renovate 2 apartment buildings and a couple of houses and that project had a 15 year time table for completion. I also have a ways to go before I can retire and get my pension so the time required to build a boat isn't something I'm that concerned about.
As for maintenance this will be a wood core with fiberglass and epoxy so no caulking or anything.

[boatman61]

Personally I would opt for the 34 with the centreboard..
The only time you'll need it is upwind work, the chines will do the job on the other points and downwind she'll be faster than a fixed keel... access to shallower waters.
Down side is a tad more maintaining keeping the trunk clean.

[Rucksta]

Originally Posted by SV_Wildfire

...…... wood core with fiberglass and epoxy so no caulking or anything.

Mmmm Wood
An organic unidirectional re-enforcing material that grows on trees.

Many who have captured wood in fiberglass have had to deal with its biodegradable nature.

Have you considered synthetic core materials e.g. Airex, Divinycell and other PVC foam?

Foam core over a male plug is efficient for a production run of one hull.

[electrum]

Originally Posted by SV_Wildfire

So let me start with a little back story. I have wanted to build my own ocean going cruising sailboat for most of my life, and find a great deal of value in building things with my hands and seeing the fruits of my labor. As we all do I started out wanting something ridiculously high maintenance and impractical. (Think 45' custom cat with bow thrusters and an onboard SCUBA compressor) As I sailed more and got more experience over the last 18 years I realized the impracticality of solo sailing it on Jack Sparrowesq adventures, much less building it in my parents backyard with lumber from Home Depot Since then I have become more realistic and I found that I really like single-handing boats in the 34' to 38' range and as such have looked at plans for every type of sailing craft that can be owner built including Horstman, Brown, Piver, Schionning, Grainger, Dix, Bruce Roberts, everyone. All the designs I looked at were either too much of a compromise, just didn't speak to me or were no longer available. Then I recently discovered that Van De Stadt makes plans in this size range and came highly recommended.

And that brings us to my current predicament that I would like input on. After looking at two different designs by them (VDS34, Forna 37) and asking them a lot of questions I am coming to a deadlock and would like some input as I don't have as much bluewater experience as a lot of y'all.
Van de Stadt Design - Van de Stadt 34 https://www.stadtdesign.com/designs/...an_de_stadt_34
Van de Stadt Design - Forna 37 https://www.stadtdesign.com/designs/..._sail/forna_37

Both designs have a choice of
3-4 different keel options ranging from a deeper fin to a shoal draft centerboard with a twin rudder setup
a choice of masthead or 7/8 fractional rig
scoop transom
wheel steering or tiller (Tiller on 34 only)
hard dodger with or without the mainsheet on top
and of course you do your interior but the standard layout is a really good setup

I am trying to decide between these two designs and their options and I am leaning more towards the VDS34 with
shoal draft and centerboard with twin rudders
masthead rig
scoop transom with propane locker in an integrated step
wheel steering
hard dodger with mainsheet on the top
and just a couple cosmetic things on the interior

I'm leaning more towards the 34 than the 37 due to the unknown factors of cost, learning curve, building space available and quite simply the more I look at it the more I like it. My main question is what do those with a lot of bluewater experience think about the choices I'm considering. I know that all boats are a compromise and that each person has their own opinion, but I was wondering what peoples experiences have been with the different options available for this design on their own boats and what is a good idea on paper vs a good idea in reality. I know this is long but I really do want to hear from y'all and see what you think.

Hi,

I know a family, who had built and circumnavigated with a Forna 37.
https://dorahajo.wordpress.com/dora-hajo/fobb-jelemzok/
The site is in Hungarian, try to use Google Translate.
It did take all the freetime of 8 years to build it, but it is made from aluminium.
If you interested in this design, get in contact with Attila, the builder and owner of this yacht, he is a very kind person. I am sure he will gladly answer your questions and he can speak english.

[SV_Wildfire]

Originally Posted by Rucksta

Mmmm Wood
An organic unidirectional re-enforcing material that grows on trees.

Many who have captured wood in fiberglass have had to deal with its biodegradable nature.

Have you considered synthetic core materials e.g. Airex, Divinycell and other PVC foam?

Foam core over a male plug is efficient for a production run of one hull.

I hadn't considered using a PVC material, I will have to ask Van De Stadt about that.
According to the study plans the design call for western red cedar strip planking sealed with epoxy and then 2 layers inside and out of diagonally laid uni directional glass with 4 more layers stem to stern on the interior all laid up with epoxy.

[Adelie]

34- you’re solo sailing, in extreme conditions that will be more than enough to deal with.

Tiller- less to go wrong. Easier to set up windvane self steering.

Twin rudders sounds like more complication and maintenance. If you were racing the boat then sure.

Masthead with an inner removable stay for storm sails.

I would think about going with a Cupro-Nickel metal hull. Possibly eliminate need for bottom paint.

Think about going with induction stove and convection oven and eliminate need for propane.

[SV_Wildfire]

Thanks for the advice, yes most of the long passages will probably be solo or at most 2 people as my wife is scared of the open ocean and claustrophobic to boot.

I hadn't considered an induction stove because of the power draw, is it worth the extra batteries and generating capability needed?

[Adelie]

For induction and convection cooking you can count on an extra 50-75amp-hr/day demand cooking 3 meals per day. That works out to 1 extra 12v house battery an extra 160W solar panel on an MPPT controller. If you cook in the AM during an engine run then daily demand on the batteries will be decreased.

There are additional requirements for this to work:
A. Needs to be a true sine wave inverter. Modified and square waves don’t work or work poorly.
B. 3kW inverter. Running both burners on high will be fine, 1 burner and the oven fine, 2 burners on medium and the oven fine, 2 burners on high and the oven will be pushing it.
C. The inverter needs to draw from the biggest battery bank you can work. Optimally all of the house batteries in a single bank, at the minimum a 450amp-hr bank. This spreads the load across multiple batteries which give you more capacity because of the Peukert effect. It also minimises voltage drop under load. Big draw on the batteries will be for minutes at a time not hours unless you are trying to boil 10s of gallons of water at a time.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day Wildfire and welcome to CF

Well, I think many of your choices are good, and I've long liked VdS designs.

But you have failed to tell us some important things, one of which is your location. This is important in many decisions about design, and especially in terms of draft for your proposed boat. Folks on the east coast of the USA are often obsessed with shallow draft, yet in most of the world's cruising grounds this isn't a very important matter, and thus the desirability of a CB is reduced. Air draft (mast height) is important for bridge clearance in some areas and of no importance in others... so why not fill out your profile with a bit more info than you have so far?

Now, back to the boat. I question the advantage of twin rudders. There are real concerns about maneuverability under power. I've no personal experience here, but there have been a lot of folks complaining about this issue in new production boats with this feature... seems to mandate a bow thruster in many cases and IMO that is a feature worth missing!

I also question the advice about induction cooking. The low cost and simplicity of propane is pretty well established, and when a proper locker is part of the original design, safety issues are pretty well covered. Yes, there is a possibility of catastrophic failure, but there is also a analogous risk of electrical fire when one has very high capacity systems on board. No free lunch there IMO, and if your big inverter carks it you are doomed to cold lunches and no coffee in the AM! The danger of propane is fiercely debated here on CF, but the tens of thousands of successful installations are hard to ignore.a

I'm a big fan of strip plank construction as practiced by VdS. Their designs are well known for conservative strength. I've been aboard a Samoa of that construction, and it was free of flaws after considerable usage. I would have bought her if someone else hadn't gotten there first. I was also aboard an aluminium Samoa that had just completed a circumnavigation and it was a wreck, with corrosion and cracking issues obvious to a quick walkthrough inspection. Chose to not buy her! And our own boat is strip planked with similar scantlings to VdS practice... and after 30 years and ~150,000 miles the hull and deck are quite sound.

One caveat though: at least here in Australia, suitable Western Red Cedar has become hard to source and eye-wateringly expensive. Do check that out before committing. And if you do go that way, be REALLY careful about protective gear. You will be using vast quantities of epoxy, and the long term effects of that can be quite debilitating. The shipwright who built our boat was young and foolish when he built her and now can not use epoxy in his work and has permanent lung damage from the damn stuff.

I very much like the VdS hard dodger designs. They offer great protection from wx, have good visibility and actually look good, unlike most hard dodgers. Having the traveller there has many good points, but the utility depends on how well designed it control systems are, so pay some attention to quality of blocks and cars if you go that way (I would).

In general, the commitment to a home build is a huge one. Not so many attempt the job, and far fewer finish it... seems like you have given the idea some serious thought, and if you decide to go through with it I wish you joy of the effort and of the fruits of that effort.

Jim