A Few Boat Building Questions

[Weyalan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I don't agree. My boat cost $200 k to build. I'd like to see the brand new 44 foot cat you can buy for $200k. I've also been advised, by a reputable broker that after 5 years of use I could still sell my boat for almost double what it cost.

Prior to building this I was looking at building a Martz 46 monohull. Would have cost around $275k to build. Any brand new, centre cockpit 46 foot mono's around for less than $275k? Second hand Martz 46 es sell for very good prices too.

Also, from what I've seen, the quality of construction (if not the finishing) of most home-built boats is far superior to most production boats. Fully glassed in bulkheads, numerous sealed buoyancy chambers, all tinned wiring etc, are pretty much the norm for a home build, but not so much in boats built for profit.

Firstly, I bet you dollars to donuts that the $200k doesn't include your labour. Figure 10,000 hours at, what, $50 per hour? There's an additional $500,000 dollars right there.

I am also highly suspicious of the $200k figure. Reason I say that is that my brother in law is currently fairly well through the build of a 45' Schionning (I've spent quite a lot of hours helping him too, heh) and I gotta say that the mast, rigging and deck hardware package is quoted at around $100k. The twin Lombardini engines and sail drives were another $25k, the stove, fridge, freezer are gonna be $10k, we haven't even mentioned hatches, electrical and wiring, instruments, sails....

Like I say, if you like building boats, for sure, build a boat. If you like sailing, go earn real money doing whatever you are gonna earn most money for, and buy a boat with that money. Not saying that you shouldn't build, but building for the sake of saving money is a false economy.

[Benz]

You can absolutely save money on an a home-build of a kit, despite the overwhelming nay-sayers. My Cape George 31', from the factory, would weigh in at nearly $400k! But I built it from a bare hull, in three years, for less than $80k. That includes the cost of tools and a full cruising kit. I could never have gotten just the right boat for that money, and I could absolutely never have saved $400K in three years. If you are judicious and inventive and build whatever you can (hatches, and spars and do all your own rigging, etc), and only buy what you can't make (portholes? Engine? LPG Stove?), you can come in WAY below the cost. I did, and I still went sailing in what I consider a reasonable time frame. So to repeat what someone said earlier, don't confuse "You can't" with "I can't"
Best,
Ben
PS I vote for fiberglass and Vinylester
zartmancruising dot com

[Capt Hugh Wilde]

I run an aluminum boat and she is great, but she is a hard chine monohull.

I have just spent the last 4 years of my life building a 45' powercat out of foam and epoxy glass.

She was designed by B&B Yacht designs and there is a build thread right here about here.

It has been a huge project.

She is beautiful and performs great, but I could not advise anybody to undertake her construction as a home build.

If someone wanted to do that, I would advise a having someone do a design and build her CNC cut ring frames with a strip planked red cedar bottom and plywood sides, epoxy glassed.

That is a much simpler and less costly method.

Aluminum would be a poor choice for this for 2 reasons, it would be heavier than either foam and glass or wood and glass, and it would be a bear to build the proper bottom shape in aluminum.

Depending on power and systems, that part is huge as well.

I know 3 people that have done what you are looking at with a build time of 6 to 10 years on their projects.

It is a huge number of man hours and not something just to jump on.

But, that being said, if there is anything I can do to help a fellow, crazy, powercat junkie, feel free to contact me.

Nobody knows the pitfalls better than a fellow junkie.

[Mirar]

HI ALL A sensitive subject for me, 6 full years into a build project. This is my second one, the first a 48' Herreshoff built all out of good wood, cruised and lived aboard for over 30 years. That boat cost about 40 grand to build (way back in the 70's) and after all those years of work and refits we sold her for close to 200K. Probably only broke even, but well worth the exchange.
The new boat is a 55' Chuck Paine style, 3/8" alloy hull plating built for all oceans has a great pilot house , and no paint or wood on the outside. Is it a good financial deal? Who knows? what I do know is that it is a far better boat than I can buy anywhere for triple or four times the cost. I have well under three hundred Canadian into it and have about another 50 to go for all the safety and electronic gismos. People want to pin me down about whether I am regretting ever starting, when will I launch etc, but in the mean time lots of folks just pxxs their lives away critiquing others and really never accomplish much. So, in a time of my life when I really don't want a boat in the water, I just do what I love to do best and that is messin with a boat. At the end of the day, I will have a good boat, or at least the best that I can do after spending about 46 years on the water in a professional and recreational manner. If you can reconcile all these issues within your own life , then who cares what others think. Follow your own instincts on this one otherwise you will never get anything done. pics on request.
Greg

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by minaret

Does that 200k figure (nice round number) include paying yourself a fair wage for your own time, ie what you'd make if you did something more profitable with that time? In other words, if someone else asked you to build that boat for them, your bill to that person would be 200k all in? I doubt it. I think you are leaving out a couple of thousand hours of labor there (at least). Does it also include all systems, including sails and rig? Don't see how it could.

That includes all sails, the rig (which I built myself too) and electroncs. everything needed to be ready to go. Yes it's a round number, in fact it was a few thousand less, but I rounded up.

No, I didn't include a wage for myself, as I wasn't paying myself. I also didn't include renting my own shed on my own land....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

Firstly, I bet you dollars to donuts that the $200k doesn't include your labour. Figure 10,000 hours at, what, $50 per hour? There's an additional $500,000 dollars right there.

I am also highly suspicious of the $200k figure. Reason I say that is that my brother in law is currently fairly well through the build of a 45' Schionning (I've spent quite a lot of hours helping him too, heh) and I gotta say that the mast, rigging and deck hardware package is quoted at around $100k. The twin Lombardini engines and sail drives were another $25k, the stove, fridge, freezer are gonna be $10k, we haven't even mentioned hatches, electrical and wiring, instruments, sails....

.

Frankly I couldn't give a rats arse whether you believe me or not. I don't believe much you have to say either. Your brother in law? Yeah right....

If he's paying 100k for a rig he's a dickhead. Unless it's a biplane carbon rig or something. My rig cost around a 10th of that. The mast section was $1200 delivered, boom $800, spreader section $100. Rigging screws, swageless fttings wire etc was $6000. Furler $1200. About another $1500 for the sheaves, rivets, screws, etc, some alloy plate and welding....

A nice triradial cut fully battened main and triradial headsail from Gary Saxby UK Halsey sails of Brisbane cost $7500. That also included him making the boom bag too.

I have Honda 20's, $6000 each. Fridge was < $300, so was the freezer, the 1500 Watt invertor to run them was $310. Cheap, so I got two.

Hatches were pricey, but Lewmar did OEM pricing for me. We did a bulk buy of winches for 5 boats, got something like 30 winches at once, very good prices.

No I didn't Pay myself $50 per hour for labour. Frankly at the start I wouldn't have been worth anything like that. even so, it didn't take me anywhere near 10,000 hours. I estimate 6000 max.

But isn't the whole point of DIY to NOT pay for labour?

It took me less than 4 years, and we also went overseas for a couple of months during that time, went sailing, 2 trips to cape York, etc.

As I said earlier, there are people (like you) who will say "You can't". What you mean is "I can't" and you're almost certainly right.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Frankly I couldn't give a rats arse whether you believe me or not. I don't believe much you have to say either. Your brother in law? Yeah right....

If he's paying 100k for a rig he's a dickhead. Unless it's a biplane carbon rig or something. My rig cost around a 10th of that. The mast section was $1200 delivered, boom $800, spreader section $100. Rigging screws, swageless fttings wire etc was $6000. Furler $1200. About another $1500 for the sheaves, rivets, screws, etc, some alloy plate and welding....

A nice triradial cut fully battened main and triradial headsail from Gary Saxby UK Halsey sails of Brisbane cost $7500. That also included him making the boom bag too.

I have Honda 20's, $6000 each. Fridge was < $300, so was the freezer, the 1500 Watt invertor to run them was $310. Cheap, so I got two.

Hatches were pricey, but Lewmar did OEM pricing for me. We did a bulk buy of winches for 5 boats, got something like 30 winches at once, very good prices.

No I didn't Pay myself $50 per hour for labour. Frankly at the start I wouldn't have been worth anything like that. even so, it didn't take me anywhere near 10,000 hours. I estimate 6000 max.

But isn't the whole point of DIY to NOT pay for labour?

It took me less than 4 years, and we also went overseas for a couple of months during that time, went sailing, 2 trips to cape York, etc.

As I said earlier, there are people (like you) who will say "You can't". What you mean is "I can't" and you're almost certainly right.

How about some nice pics? In all the years you've been posting about your boat here, I've never seen one. Let's have some construction pics and some finished boat pics. Come on, you've seen mine! You know the rule of the web-pics or it didn't happen.

[colemj]

Maybe try looking at all the build pictures he has posted in his profile gallery?

He has only been posting them since 2007.

Mark

[gilgsn]

Nobody mentions Wharram?

Gil


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SkiprJohn]

To build, rebuild or buy built...... that is the question?

Not really, the OP says he wants to build. He's probably already read all the posts saying it is not economical to do so and what you end up with is a homebuilt custom for you and not easily resellable (Unless you buy drawings from an architect and follow them). And, you are not sailing when you are building.

If I were to do it all over again, I'd buy but and that's because I can't seem to finish any project I start regardless of what it is. I have too many projects and gather more when I know I can't finish them. Just a bad personality trait I guess.

So if you are someone who can follow a project from start to finish, have lots of spare time on your hands and money for materials and equipment then by all means build.

I wish you the very best.

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by gilgsn

Nobody mentions Wharram?

One option is getting a pair of 47ft hulls already made from Boatsmith in FL.
This would be a real jumpstart on a build, but not the high cost of the other kits, and the OP is also in FL.
Downside is a Wharram design isn't exactly a high value resell and has an open bridgedeck design most don't want.

[barnakiel]

I would think alloy is fine. I have seen alloy cats of this size range and they seemed to be doing fine with happy owners onboard.

I would not build from sandwich panel kits. I have seen a Schionning built from sandwich panel material and she had issues. Most likely builders problem but nonetheless a no-no for me.

b.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by minaret

How about some nice pics? In all the years you've been posting about your boat here, I've never seen one. Let's have some construction pics and some finished boat pics. Come on, you've seen mine! You know the rule of the web-pics or it didn't happen.

Pics have been on this site for years. I posted a link to them in my first post on this thread. I've also put up some sailing videos of us at close to wind speed, under just the main and jib. How about you post a similar video from your boat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dHkY_XaSGk

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by gilgsn

Nobody mentions Wharram?

Gil


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You just did!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Stumble

None of them to my knowledge have a design close to this size.

Your knowledge is incomplete.

I forgot to mention - Schionning doesn't just do plans for the kit designs. He also has a range of plans for strip-plank cedar/glass construction.

And there are plenty of other designers I didn't mention. Hughes, Tennant, Grainger, Kelsall.......

For me though, the kit was actually an added incentive to finish. After the initial outlay I simply couldn't afford to quit.