Support HR 1024 - E15 Fuel Labeling Law

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Your problem is going to be buying fuel that isn’t E15, it’s going to be hard to find, and overpriced.

Is this true?


There are plenty of vehicles that can't use it.


I guess we're going to find out.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Seldom.
I have information, I believe important to those that do. And I share it.

Sharing is good.....just curious why you would push a position.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Is this true?

I have no idea, and I doubt anyone that isn’t made to will blend gasoline with ETH as it’s way more expensive than gasoline, why decrease their profits?

I assume though if it’s mandated or in those states that mandate ETH, I wouldn’t expect to see E10 and E15 available.
I think E10 will be like ETH free fuel often is, a boutique fuel, that is sold at a premium price, look at what “pure” gas usually costs, and all it is is the exact same gas, that hasn’t had ETH blended into it.

I used to get my fuel from the Chevron Jobber in Albany Ga. he got fuel right out of the Pipeline and he was the one that blended the ETH into the fuel, cause you can’t pump fuel with ethanol in it through a pipeline, I believe the ethanol is a solvent and if you do you’ll get all kinds of junk out of the pipeline.

Remember they may run Diesel for a week, and gasoline for two weeks, they don’t have separate pipes for each kind of fuel.
Regular, mid grade and Premium is all the same base stock gasoline with different additives and or different amounts of additive.

Apparently the ETH at 10% must not bump that octane by much?

Just a little study says 10% ETH bumps octane two points.
What is more interesting is price of ETH has plummeted from where it was in 2013 or so when I was buying ETH free fuel.
I have no idea why, perhaps production out strips demand, and maybe that’s what’s behind the E15?

[Saltyhog]

It’s all really simple. China (and Russia) can’t or won’t buy our corn now because of tariffs. Big ag has to sell it to someone, so they force us all to buy it in our gas.

[GordMay]

A list of stations that sell pure, ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.
They currently have 14,301 stations entered for the following provinces and states. Click on a province or state to see them.
➥ https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp

[jewt]

Perhaps we should support banning the EPA. I am tried of being force to support the corn farmers like this. Ethanol cost more, is less effective, reduces your mileage and is harmful to our engines. Save the corn for the dinner table or the bar.

jewt
S/V Bifrost
New Bern, NC

[GregW1309]

We should ask for legislation requiring non ethanol fuel be sold from a separate pump at all locations that sell ethanol tainted fuel.

[BruceS]

Don't the service stations in USA have a different hose for each product like in Australia?
Quite common to have 4 or 5 hoses on each 'pump number' over here.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by BruceS

Don't the service stations in USA have a different hose for each product like in Australia?
Quite common to have 4 or 5 hoses on each 'pump number' over here.

For Diesel yes, but often there is only one hose for gasoline.
The amount in the hose is really not very significant, not unless your only buying a gallon or so.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by BruceS

Don't the service stations in USA have a different hose for each product like in Australia?
Quite common to have 4 or 5 hoses on each 'pump number' over here.

Typically on "newer" pumps there is a single hose [generally marked with a red or black handle] used for dispensing the three grades of gasoline, [i.e., petrol] for which one pushes a large button to chose which of the three octane grade of gasoline you desire, and there is a second hose for diesel, [generally marked with a green handle]. The dispensing nozzle have different diameters which precludes putting a diesel nozzle into a gasoline tank entry. The older pumps had separate dedicated hoses for each grade or type of fuel, so four hoses was common - three grades of octane gasoline and one diesel hose.

Then there are dedicated pumps for dispensing diesel for large commercial trucks with large tanks which pumps dispense fuel at significantly faster rate of flow then the pumps used for cars and light trucks.

Diesel is often blended with biodeisel so as to meet the refiner's Renewable Fuel Standard, e.g., Up to 5% biodiesel.

In cold climate areas during winter there is often two choices for diesel based on their gel temperature ratings. Diesel #1 has kerosene added to lower the gelling temperature, whereas Diesel #2 does not have kerosene and will begin to gel at 32 degrees F, Zero C.
Below are generalizations.
DIESEL #1 VS DIESEL #2
Cetane rating - which, like a gasoline's octane, indicates ignition ease - is the primary difference between Diesel #1 and Diesel #2. Really, it's a difference in fuel efficiency, volatility, and seasonality.

Diesel #1 has a shorter ignition delay.
A faster and more efficient start means less wear on your engines’ batteries. The higher cetane rating also reduces maintenance requirements, helping diesel engines to run smoothly.

Diesel #1 has added lubricants.
Premium Diesel’s added lubricants help keep fuel system parts moving freely. The reduced friction extends the life of the fuel pump and other fuel system components.

Diesel #1 has added detergents.
Over time fuel systems can gum up with sediments and other debris. Diesel #1 contains added detergents to clean injectors and other fuel system components while the engine is running. A clean fuel system not only lasts longer, it improves fuel efficiency and horsepower output.

Diesel #1 has other beneficial fuel additives.
In addition to lubricants and detergents, Diesel #1 has other fuel additives to enhance engine performance and reduce equipment downtime. Demulsifiers in premium Diesel work to separate emulsified water from the fuel so that it can be filtered out; even in a well-sealed fuel system air moisture can find its way in and result in major engine problems. Corrosion inhibitors prevent rust and corrosion from building up and stabilizers help to prevent clogs and build up.

Diesel #1 performs better in cold temperatures.
Diesel #1 is also known as winter diesel because it performs better than Diesel #2 in cold temperatures. It has a lower viscosity and is not prone to gel in freezing temperatures. Most stations offer a premium Diesel mix that is blended for local weather conditions.
Diesel #2 costs less at the pump.
While premium Diesel offers a slew of benefits, resulting in fewer repairs and equipment downtime, standard diesel costs less at the pump and that’s an important factor to be weighed. However, total cost of ownership should consider the cost benefits of not just the fuel alone, but the resulting effect on continued maintenance expenses. Choosing between Diesel #1 and Diesel #2 may ultimately come down to the age and size of your fleet.

There also commonly being dedicated pumps for "off road" diesel with is dyed red and is not subject to the inclusion of a Federal or State excise tax which funds are used for our transportation infrastructure, i.e. Road Tax. Red dyed Off Road Use fuel is less expensive than undyed ON Road Use fuel because it does not include the excise tax. Red dyed fuel being very common in rural areas, which fuel is dispensed into separate transport tanks to be taken back to the farm for use in agriculture equipment or for construction and earth moving equipment. There is a really big fine for using red dyed diesel in any vehicle that operates on a public roadway and there are the occasional red dye checkpoints established at random on roadways where all vehicles are stopped and those with diesel fuel are sampled to see if their diesel is red. These random check points keep people honest. One rarely finds such law enforcement checkpoints in major metropolitan areas because there is seldom red dyed diesel sold in the big cities because there is little to no need for "off road" fuel and "off road" driving.

At many gasoline stations they carry Supreme [high octane 91 to 93] which is labeled as ethanol free so as to avail gasoline specifically for use in smaller engines [lawn and garden equipment, portable generators, boats, etc. Rarely does as gasoline station have two types of Supreme, one with inclusion of ethanol and another without ethanol. Very few cars require Supreme fuel so it tends to sell at much lower volumes and as I had stated it will be often be ethanol free gasoline because the refiners can avoid blending ethanol to meet their average production Renewable Fuels Standard when making only small volumes of "Supreme" grade of fuel. If many vehicles used Supreme grade of fuel then most Supreme fuel would be mixed with ethanol because the refiners would need such fuel to meet there average inclusion rate.

Of key controversial issue is that the Environmental Protection Agency [EPA] is boosting the Renewable Fuel Standard to allow for upto 15% instead of 10% ethanol. The midwest corn growing States desiring to support the increased use of ethanol and biodiesel so as to support the corn growing sector of their economy and the ethanol distilleries and biodiesel manufacturers.
Rule Summary
On May 30, 2019, EPA finalized regulatory changes to allow gasoline blended with up to 15 percent ethanol (E15) to take advantage of the 1-psi Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) waiver that currently applies to E10 during the summer months. EPA is also finalizing regulatory changes to modify certain elements of the renewable identification number (RIN) compliance system under the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) program, in order to bring greater transparency to the market and deter price manipulation.

Under the finalized expansion, E15 will be allowed to be sold year-round without additional RVP control rather than just eight months of the year.

The finalized reforms to RIN markets include:

Requiring public disclosure when RIN holdings exceed specified thresholds
Collecting additional data to improve market transparency and enhance EPA oversight

Ethanol is rarely blended into diesel fuel and if it is it will be at modest percentages, less than 5%. There are advantages and disadvantages with blending ethanol with diesel and the OEMs are not ready to warrant such and the emissions testing would need to be redone to certify the long term performance of their vehicles. One tends to get more torque and lower adverse emissions but also more vibration and shock when ethanol is added to diesel.

Octane ratings are typically lower at high altitude locations, for example Regular gasoline in Montana's mountainous west is generally a minimum of 85 octane because the lower oxygen content of the air precludes premature combustion, and there is a mid grade at 87 Octane and a premium at 89 octane. At mid-altitudes [e.g., 3,000 feet / 1 kilometer] 87 octane Regular gasoline is standard with mid grade at 89 and premium grade at 91 Octane. Flatlander visitors to our State are often perplexed by the comparatively low octane and will purchase the higher and more expensive grade of fuel unless taught that they can use the low octane when motoring at our higher altitudes and then blend towards higher octane when they refuel and drive to States with lower altitudes.

There being far fewer diesel powered cars and light trucks in the USA then in most other countries. Gasoline being the customary fuel for most American cars. The European cars, especially VW with their massive Dieselgate scandal of "defeat devices" to end run the emissions standards has cost those vehicle manufacturers tens of billions of dollars in Federal and State fines and taken away the "Green" image of diesel as a environmentally preferable fuel.

The last fuel pump imaged below is not one I am accustomed to. It has non-dyed diesel hose and four grades of gasoline, one with Regular 87 octane 10% ethanol gasoline and then THREE grades of ethanol free gasoline. The hose with the green colored handle will dispense diesel, the hose with the black handle will dispense gasoline with up to 10% ethanol at 87 Octane minimum, and the yellow handled hose will dispense three Octane grades of ethanol free gasoline. Quite the Menu.
All fuel pumps indicate if gasoline is mixed with ethanol and what the maximum blend of ethanol could be. One just need to read the labels on the dispenser and make your appropriate choice. I.e. don't be a clewless sailor, or clueless driver.

[BruceS]

Yes. Some variation in Australia too.
My point I guess was that a lot of details on this forum tend to be USA only whereas the forum is, I think, world wide??
Some questions also need to specify what country & maybe even what state in what country....
I could make a post as long as yours too about the hose colours & specs of fuel from each hose. (in Australia) (Yep! Colours is spelt correct!!)

[FPNC]

Years ago, as a work assignment, I had to collect and file MSDS sheets for every chemical imaginable, including gasoline. MSDS sheets show the chemical makeup of products that workers are exposed to. You can find an MSDS for just about everything.

If you study an MSDS sheet for gasoline from the 1980's you will find ethanol in the mixture at between 5-10%. The petroleum companies and suppliers/blenders have been using ethanol in gasoline for a very long time to control octane. Ethanol in gasoline is not new. Exceeding 10% is where things get dicey.

In the 1990's blenders where adding over 20% ethanol. Why? Most probably money. That extra high level of ethanol caused a lot of problems.