Paragon transmission problem on FL 120

[wswezey1]

I have a paragon p33l attached to a ford Lehman 120 in my trawler. The transmission is making a rubbing/light grinding noise in forward and reverse (at first, it didn't make a noise when idling in forward, only when we put the throttle up a little.) No noise in neutral. Oil is brown and could be described as "burnt smelling". It smells like used engine oil to me. Oil level is good and has never been low. Oil has not been changed in quite a while though.anyone have any ideas what could be the problem or a good direction to look? Thank you! In Daytona Beach, FL now.

[model 10]

I think Paragon transmissions are supposed to use ATF but mine has always had motor oil in it. It turns brown after a while from the clutch disk wear. If it's working correctly, seems like the only thing that could make noise would be a bearing or the reduction gears.

[pdxsailordiver]

My paragon SA102 uses 30wt motor oil

[wswezey1]

UPDATE:
Drained all the oil and replaced with Type F ATF. I researched this a ton and type F is for older Ford engines before 1985 I believe. A replacement for type A. They also have type FA at NAPA which is the same part number as type F which the guy said is the same, just different packagaing.

Anyway, drained the oil and put new oil in (about 2 quarts) level was right, started the engine, let it warm up, checked the oil, level was still good. No noise in nuetral still and no shaft movement in nuetral. As soon as I put it into gear I got the same rubbing/grinding. This time when I put it back in nuetral the shaft kept spinning (not sure if this was happening before). Put my hand on it to see if I could stop it but no, it was definitely being powered by the engine. Shut down the engine, started back up, no shaft spin in nuetral, back in forward, same noise and shaft spin, back in nuetral, no noise but same shaft spin, shut it down.

Started taking things apart. Disconnected shaft coupling from reduction gear?, about 2-3 tablespoons of black powder fell out of this coupling connection. Anyone know what this could be? I then disconnected the reduction gear from the reverse gear housing (I think I have these terms correct). That came off smooth and everything looked ok. Reduction gear felt like it spun normal and smooth. I then disconnected the rest of the transmission from the bell housing (all this after I disconnected oil cooler lines and shifter cable of course). The inside of the gear connected to the bell housing looked gross. Black, oil coated rust flakes? and gunk. The shaft exiting the gear on this side spins fine and smooth. There was some oil left in the bottom of the bell housing that was light brown like the old ATF. Is the oil in the bell housing suppose to be engine oil or atf? Sure enough the damper plate springs were destroyed. Small pieces of metal at the bottom of the bell housing.

So now I need to know if it is just the damper plate or clutch plates as well. Am I getting water or something I'm not suppose to in the bell housing? What do you guys think? Thank you!

[model 10]

The condition inside your bellhousing sounds sounds just like mind did. If it's a Perkins, the bell housing is almost water tight so it gets gross in there. I'd put in a new dampner plate before tearing the trans apart to put in new clutch disks.

[wswezey1]

**update**
Replaced damper plate, took apart transmission, replaced seals, gaskets, and clutches (old clutches didn't look bad - straight and minimal wear). put everything back together, mounted it up and tested it. Absolutely no drive/response in forward. If I push the throttle a bit in forward still no response but I get a loud "whine". As soon as I put the lever in reverse I get the same loud "whine" right off the bat and no shaft response. This is driving me crazy. Oil level is good, brake band looked ok, throttle linkage is all working correctly. Any ideas??

[model 10]

Are you sure you have the clutch disks preloaded correctly?

[wswezey1]

Pretty sure. Started with a steel disk then bronze, continue every other until it ends with a steel. Steel disks are "splined?" to gear housing and bronze disks are splined to the sun gear? On the inside of the gear case. Have the spring loaded on the cap end set in place with a retainer ring. More to it than that but I'm pretty sure I did it all correctly

[model 10]

I thought there was a ring/plate on the end of the clutch assembly with holes. You tighten that up and a 5/16 cap screw holds it in place? On mine you adjust it so you can put it in gear, or not.

[Glenn.Brooks]

Sounds like your clutches are worn beyond useful tolerance. Also, isn't there a throw out bearing in the transmission housing where it bolts up to the motor? A rebuild sounds likely.

Gpb

[wswezey1]

Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks

Sounds like your clutches are worn beyond useful tolerance. Also, isn't there a throw out bearing in the transmission housing where it bolts up to the motor? A rebuild sounds likely.

Gpb

Yes, already rebuilt with new clutches (see above). The old ones weren't bad either. Not sure what you mean by a throw out bearing.

[wswezey1]

Originally Posted by Guy

I thought there was a ring/plate on the end of the clutch assembly with holes. You tighten that up and a 5/16 cap screw holds it in place? On mine you adjust it so you can put it in gear, or not.

Under the spring in the cap of the gear case is the forward piston. Is that what you mean? I believe when that is pressurized is when the clutches engage and the whole gear case starts to spin.

[model 10]

Originally Posted by wswezey1

Under the spring in the cap of the gear case is the forward piston. Is that what you mean? I believe when that is pressurized is when the clutches engage and the whole gear case starts to spin.

so sorry, i was thinking manual trans.

[wswezey1]

**Problem Solved**

I finally gave up and committed to buying a rebuilt trans. When I was taking it to the shop to make sure it matched up I felt the back coupling on the reduction housing spin and noticed that the gear did not spin. So it turned out that the splines on the shaft and/or inside the coupling have stripped enough so the coupling spins free with enough pressure. I didn't notice this at first because there was still a bit of friction on it for it to not spin completely free.

Well, now I have two rebuilt trans but one with a stripped coupling and reduction gear shaft. If anyone has those parts please pm me. Or, if you'd like to buy that trans with those parts broken please pm me.

Mike at thermal transmissions in Stuart was awesome. I highly recommend him if you need a marine transmission rebuilt.

[model 10]

[QUOTE=Guy;2401354I seems like the only thing that could make noise would be a bearing or the reduction gears.[/QUOTE]