Hybrid Electric Sail Boat Generator Question

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Devils advocate:

Perhaps its just a misunderstanding. Its not uncommon to use a high powered electric motor at a lower power. For example, some common electric trolling motors run just fine on 12volts, or you can run at 48volts for much more power. Same motor. Maybe this is what's been done. High power electric motor installed. Will run with whatever current you want to provide.

Following this idea...if you actually ran the engine at full power, it would likely fry the batteries and burst off its mounts. But you would never do that. You would never be able to do that because of the limitations of the batteries and the controller. Your power cables would likely melt before you got close.

So maybe this whole thing is a misunderstanding as the new owner gets to know his new boat.

My advice...a good voltmeter to check each battery individually, and try some simple engine tests at the dock.

Hiya, the previous owner said it was a torque issue, too much instant torque from a large electric motor might start damaging things. But a lot of what he says doesn't add up, for example he says i'd get better use of it with a bigger prop.. but if the prop is undersized, too much torque shouldn't be that great of an issue..

Yes I have to get to know the boat, so much to learn....

I have a voltmeter and will be doing as much testing as it takes to learn the systems before getting off the mooring.

Thanks for your comment : )

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by zstine

Well, The OP clearly stated that exceeding 11hp would damage the boat. I suppose batteries could = boat & could be a misunderstanding. But I would make sure there's no structural issue and I understood the boat's limitations before leaving the dock. The OP clearly doesn't know this boat well and the representation he conveyed from the previous owner is a seaworthiness concern in my book.

Hate to see his new boat get swept onto a lee shore or something in his first delivery.

IMO, De-rating a motor 90% to protect batteries is just bad system design.

Heya.

True I clearly don't know the boat, I am trying to come up with solutions so at the very least I don't stress before I get there and have options when I do.

Yes as I wrote in another reply, I am concerned about structural damage, you make very valid points.

I do appreciate your comments and concern, I assure you I will not be taking her out to sea until I am one hundred percent confident in not only my boat, but also in my understanding of her systems and my ability to safely sail her.

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

“The purpose of rectifying 240v to 120vdc would be to run the motor straight off the geni. I was thinking maybe I should buy a big yanmar diesel generator.” My suggestion would be to sell the electric motor and replace it with a diesel.

Diesel is the sensible way to go.
But imagine if you could have a battery bank being charged by solar and have a generator as a back up option. Then you would never have to pay for diesel again.. except for the petrol or diesel for the generator as a back up. then your cruising lifestyle has just become significantly cheaper.



You would then only be able to motor for an hour or two and have to rely on your sailing ability and then be waiting for the batteries to charge before you could do it again.... or anchor in places you can sail straight off the anchor. it will have it's limitations so it's not for every one : )

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by zloitapok

These guys have a boat similar to your: Atlantic 49, the displacement is 13 tonns.
They successfully using electric engine with LiFePO4 batteries. They didn't use even a shore power because of large solar panel array, wind generators and electric motor regeneration under sailing. It is not cheap, not replace diesel by 100%, but provide other benefits comparing to classic diesel propulsion
https://www.facebook.com/Alvejakten/?hc_location=ufi

I'm using an EP+lithium bank+DC genset at small boat and it is completely replace a classic propulsion plus some additional benefits

Heya zloitapok, Thanks for sharing the link, I will spend some time getting to know thier setup.
I do intend to setup a large solar panel array, it already has a wind generator, I am not sure I can use regen from the motor yet I still have to learn the system. I will look at getting LiFePO4 batteries later.

100% natural energy, no diesel smell, electric motors are so much more reliable - maybe not so the control systems and batteries -

I dream of never having to pay for fuel again, making my own water, catching my own fish and getting away from it all for a while

[Sailing Ozzie]

Just want to say Thank You for everyone's input; your support, advice and playing devils advocate is greatly appreciated.


One option I am considering is selling the motor setup and installing a 48v motor. 120v and water scares me. I wouldn't convert her back to diesel though.



I plan on fabricating a stainless steel or aluminium bimini and covering it with as many solar panels as i can and completing the set up of the wind turbine.



Hauling her out to replace the through hulls and seacocks, addressing any structural issues and repainting her. Also I'll have the chain plates inspected and replace the rigging, possibly change to dyneema.



Replace or reseat the hatches.



By the sounds of it I will have to upgrade the prop as well.



Replace the batteries if need be and sort out any other electrical issues.


Change from gas to electric stove and oven.



And the Tasmanian Oak interior needs a lot of TLC.



I will be the whole time calculating the cost benefit ratio and consider scraping her or fight to get my money back worst case scenario.



I am also considering a small 12v washing machine.


I hope to run a water maker with a cat pump straight off the electric motor and install a shower or use a camp shower.


If my budget allows I will also get a tender with a motor big enough to tow her as another back up. I also want a little tender rowboat for fitness and not having to rely on burning dinosaur juice.



This is all within my budget, but I possibly won't have enough money left over to cruise for an extended period, but I will at least have a comfortable home.



I don't intend to sail her out to sea until she is seaworthy. I still have to learn to sail a boat of this size, my experience is limited to sailing a Nacra 5.8 offshore, but I have been researching for about twenty years.



This is a giant step for me, I have much to learn... this boat came up for sale and I bought it sight unseen because the price was little more than the price of the motor setup and I could have bought a boat for $30k and still have to do a complete refit.



There is a haul out boat yard nearby, it's not as cheap as the one I hope to get to, but it's there if I need it.



Thanks Again, I hope to see you all out there someday : )

[Montanan]

Below are the performance curves for the Hyper 9 motor at various voltages.

I would recommend operating the motors pulling the desired DC Voltage at your desired rated underload power from the battery bank with batteries placed in series connectivity to realize the moderate voltage and to charge the batteries using rectified DC power from your diesel engine powered generator.

Do not rely on just operating the motor from the diesel engine powered generator instead have a degree of reserve power as back up from the battery bank just in case your genny becomes non-operable.

One will require a very significant battery bank to yield anything near the rated power of the Hyper 9 motor.

Size your propeller as to pitch and diameter so as to utilize the torque from your Hyper 9 which torque could be raised by gearing down from the motor as the motor seems to be rated up to 8,000 rpm. Of course one may be limited as to diameter of the propeller depending on the distance between the propeller shaft and the hull. Your application is a sailboat which is a slow moving vessel so large diameter and steep pitch as desirable, load up on the torque, utilize gearing to your favor since you aren't dealing with a GoFast boat.

As to lethality, from researching for outdoor power equipment applications [weed whackers, leaf blowers, etc.] and for golf and utility vehicle product development applications, I have read that one can in worst case situation induce fibrillation / heart stoppage with 36 Volts under pulse width modulation but that is for children sized bodies and worst case current pathway. Realistically one needs to be cautious when DC voltage reaches 60 when utilizing pulse width modulation. Just don't become a part of the circuit pathway and one can operate safely at the modest voltages as specified in the performance diagrams. I would favor higher voltages and lower current.

My company's EV motor systems developments generally are rated for 480 volt minimum, we prefer 600 to 650 volts and will soon scale towards 1,000 volt plus since the power electronics favor such.

[Montanan]

108 volt Hyper 9 motor performance curve linked below:

https://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/HyPer_9_1...erformance.pdf

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Below are the performance curves for the Hyper 9 motor at various voltages.

I would recommend operating the motors pulling the desired DC Voltage at your desired rated underload power from the battery bank with batteries placed in series connectivity to realize the moderate voltage and to charge the batteries using rectified DC power from your diesel engine powered generator.

Do not rely on just operating the motor from the diesel engine powered generator instead have a degree of reserve power as back up from the battery bank just in case your genny becomes non-operable.

One will require a very significant battery bank to yield anything near the rated power of the Hyper 9 motor.

Size your propeller as to pitch and diameter so as to utilize the torque from your Hyper 9 which torque could be raised by gearing down from the motor as the motor seems to be rated up to 8,000 rpm. Of course one may be limited as to diameter of the propeller depending on the distance between the propeller shaft and the hull. Your application is a sailboat which is a slow moving vessel so large diameter and steep pitch as desirable, load up on the torque, utilize gearing to your favor since you aren't dealing with a GoFast boat.

As to lethality, from researching for outdoor power equipment applications [weed whackers, leaf blowers, etc.] and for golf and utility vehicle product development applications, I have read that one can in worst case situation induce fibrillation / heart stoppage with 36 Volts under pulse width modulation but that is for children sized bodies and worst case current pathway. Realistically one needs to be cautious when DC voltage reaches 60 when utilizing pulse width modulation. Just don't become a part of the circuit pathway and one can operate safely at the modest voltages as specified in the performance diagrams. I would favor higher voltages and lower current.

My company's EV motor systems developments generally are rated for 480 volt minimum, we prefer 600 to 650 volts and will soon scale towards 1,000 volt plus since the power electronics favor such.

Montanan You are a fountain of knowledge, thank you so much

[SV Heartbeat]

Hey Ozzie. I think some of what you have been told may be incorrect. I have a hybrid sailboat. First you say your motor max draw is 70 amps at 120 v. You multiply that together and get in 8400 watts. My mother is 10000 watts but I seldom power over 70 amps. But could pull 200 if I wanted. Id be Leary of maxing out the motor. The batts would get hot dumping that much power A Honda eu 2000 will give you 1600 watts continuous. Enough to run a small charger but impractical if you need to motor and not run your genset all night to catch up. What are your batteries lead acid agm or lithium ion? By running 2 Honda eu 2000 in series I was able to motor continuously using 3200 watts. I seemed to be able to get almost 30 amps but the math says 26 amps. It made a slow day on the ICW. I have 200 amp agm 48 volt drive battery bank and would draw a few extra amps from it to move about 3 nots. My initial voyage was 1000 miles. Tampa to Oriental no in 5 weeks so it can be done. I have upgraded to next gen 5.5 diesel gem test with a 5000 watt Elcon 48 volt charger powered with 240 volt ac. That gives me 80 amps. I can draw more if needed or less and put some back in the bank. This isn’t theory. I do this every day. Pm me if you would like to talk more. Wade

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by SV Heartbeat

Hey Ozzie. I think some of what you have been told may be incorrect. I have a hybrid sailboat. First you say your motor max draw is 70 amps at 120 v. You multiply that together and get in 8400 watts. My mother is 10000 watts but I seldom power over 70 amps. But could pull 200 if I wanted. Id be Leary of maxing out the motor. The batts would get hot dumping that much power A Honda eu 2000 will give you 1600 watts continuous. Enough to run a small charger but impractical if you need to motor and not run your genset all night to catch up. What are your batteries lead acid agm or lithium ion? By running 2 Honda eu 2000 in series I was able to motor continuously using 3200 watts. I seemed to be able to get almost 30 amps but the math says 26 amps. It made a slow day on the ICW. I have 200 amp agm 48 volt drive battery bank and would draw a few extra amps from it to move about 3 nots. My initial voyage was 1000 miles. Tampa to Oriental no in 5 weeks so it can be done. I have upgraded to next gen 5.5 diesel gem test with a 5000 watt Elcon 48 volt charger powered with 240 volt ac. That gives me 80 amps. I can draw more if needed or less and put some back in the bank. This isn’t theory. I do this every day. Pm me if you would like to talk more. Wade

Hiya Wade, thanks for the info.
I am assuming they are lead acid, I won't know until Monday.

For sure I'll definitely pm you when I know what I am working with
Cheers

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Wade.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sailing Ozzie

Cheers for the Luck : ) Yes it may be expensive and time consuming initially, but once it's sorted and charging with solar, I hope it will be trouble free and I'll never have to pay for fuel/diesel ever again... except for the tender outboard. Hoping to get an hour or two out of the electric motor, just enough to get me out of an anchorage and then sail.

Tender likely makes more sense for electric propulsion (and yes, I do think this is a good option for small tenders)...but you are here now.

It doesn't make sense that the torque would damage things as when you first start spinning a prop up, there isn't much resistance to starting a prop turning. If it could break the motor mounts, the motor mounts are faulty or under designed.

If your long term goal is just to get in and out of harbor electric works (though this system sounds very sketchy). But if this is your ultimate goal, I wouldn't want to spend a lot on a big generator that you will rarely if ever use again once you sort out the issues. Either a small portable that doesn't cost much to charge up the battery bank (2-5kw won't move the boat very well if connected directly). Then with full banks and maybe the generator keeping up the charge on the banks to extend range, get out 5-10miles to an anchorage...of course rebuilding in an anchorage will be a lot less convenient than at dock side.

I wish you well but honestly, I don't see this going well.

[Sailing Ozzie]

UPDATE:
All of the hull ribs are rotted out.
All of the plywood reinforcing for the dog house is rotted out.
In sections; the hull is de-laminated, rotten and leaking.

All of the electrics including the motor is covered in rust, copper oxide and salt not at all like in the videos he had on the add which showed it all as brand new.

The battery bank for the motor was only 130 amp and he claimed to be able to get 5 hours out of it.

The list just goes on. Back to the drawing board and potentially into court to get my money back, not only did I get almost everything in writing but I made a video of him claiming its great before I started uncovering the cancer.

I know I shouldn't have rushed into it.... he just seemed like such a nice guy and I didn't want to miss out on what sounded like a really good project sailboat.

[Montanan]

Ozzie, sorry to hear of your misadventure in purchasing a project boat.

So it sounds like you have exchanged consideration, i.e., paid some cash, for example, an earnest money deposit, but have you attained title transfer to the vessel or paid the balance due on the purchase?

If you have only paid an earnest money deposit, I suspect you will likely be out such funds and should just walk from transaction [and avoid taking title so as to not have taken on the liability of what seems like a junk vessel that needs to be destroyed]. Pursuing recovery of an earnest money deposit can be expensive and time consuming and frustrating in its on regard.

Lesson to be learned for the members of the forum can be summed up as: Due diligence.

[Sailing Ozzie]

It looks like I will get the majority of my money back. Pending echeck clearance.

I will still be out of pocket about 4k...

I should have known better, trusting people is a common error I make, but without faith in humanity life is very cold.

Onwards and Upwards.