Hybrid Electric Sail Boat Generator Question

[Montanan]

Hyper 9 motor specifications.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...roducts_id=482


NetGain HyPer9 HV AC Motor X144 Controller Kit 144 Volt
[H9HV-ACX144]
Price: $4,300.00
The long awaited higher voltage AC motor from NetGain is here. The new 9 inch HyPer9 HV AC motor is based on a new high efficiency design. The motor is a permanent magnet assisted synchronous reluctance design and holds the highest efficiency rating of IE4+ at 94% motor efficiency. The motor is IP56 sealed. The matching controller, an AC-X144 by SME Group will accept a supply side DC voltage of up to 180 Volts, and will output up to 500 Amps output, with a peak 88kW of power. The permanent magnets are a new design that are manufactured without the use of rare earth elements, but still gain a big efficiency advantage with a powerful 162 lb/ft of torque.

*SME Dash Display is sold separately

This kit includes:
HyPer 9 HV Motor
SME AC-X144 Controller
35 Pin Connector and Wire Harness
Gigavac GV200-QA Contactor
12 Volt HV Relay


Motor Face: B-Face (Warp Compatible)
Motor Diameter: 9.0 Inches
Motor Case Length: 13.75 Inches
Motor Shaft Length: 2.0 Inches
Motor Shaft to End Length: 15.75 Inches
Motor Type: Permanent Magnet Synchronous Reluctance AC
Weight: 120 lbs
Max Voltage Input: 180
Terminal Stud Size: M8 Inch
Integrated Sensors: Encoder and Temperature
Rated Torque: 162 Lb Ft
Rated Power: 120 HP
Max RPM: 8,000
RPM Sensor: Yes
Drive End Shaft: 1-1/8 Inch with 1/4 Inch Keyway
Accessory End Shaft: (available soon)
Max Efficiency: 0.94
Thermal Cooling: External Heatsink
Max Temperature: 150 Degrees Celsius
Matching Controller Included In Price:

Note: Due to the excessive weight of motors additional freight charges apply.

Warranty Period: 2 Years

[zstine]

Originally Posted by hamburking

Devils advocate:

Perhaps its just a misunderstanding. Its not uncommon to use a high powered electric motor at a lower power. For example, some common electric trolling motors run just fine on 12volts, or you can run at 48volts for much more power. Same motor. Maybe this is what's been done. High power electric motor installed. Will run with whatever current you want to provide.

Following this idea...if you actually ran the engine at full power, it would likely fry the batteries and burst off its mounts. But you would never do that. You would never be able to do that because of the limitations of the batteries and the controller. Your power cables would likely melt before you got close.

So maybe this whole thing is a misunderstanding as the new owner gets to know his new boat.

My advice...a good voltmeter to check each battery individually, and try some simple engine tests at the dock.

Well, The OP clearly stated that exceeding 11hp would damage the boat. I suppose batteries could = boat & could be a misunderstanding. But I would make sure there's no structural issue and I understood the boat's limitations before leaving the dock. The OP clearly doesn't know this boat well and the representation he conveyed from the previous owner is a seaworthiness concern in my book.

Hate to see his new boat get swept onto a lee shore or something in his first delivery.

IMO, De-rating a motor 90% to protect batteries is just bad system design.

[a64pilot]

Good luck, I suspect you have a long row to hoe.
You never answered how far you have to move it. Basically with a little Honda and a battery bank you will run the Honda 24/7 to motor an hour or two a day, it may not be that bad, but a little Honda will not propel a boat.

I would try to have it delivered and or find a place real close by to store it until you figure this out. It sounds like you have a partially completed project that someone gave up on to me.

[CapnBazza]

“The purpose of rectifying 240v to 120vdc would be to run the motor straight off the geni. I was thinking maybe I should buy a big yanmar diesel generator.” My suggestion would be to sell the electric motor and replace it with a diesel.

[zloitapok]

These guys have a boat similar to your: Atlantic 49, the displacement is 13 tonns.
They successfully using electric engine with LiFePO4 batteries. They didn't use even a shore power because of large solar panel array, wind generators and electric motor regeneration under sailing. It is not cheap, not replace diesel by 100%, but provide other benefits comparing to classic diesel propulsion
https://www.facebook.com/Alvejakten/?hc_location=ufi

I'm using an EP+lithium bank+DC genset at small boat and it is completely replace a classic propulsion plus some additional benefits

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by GordMay

From where to where, or how far?

From a temporary mooring at Church Point NSW to... I don't know yet, the previous owner is making a map of possible NEAR BY anchorages for me as he is familiar with the area.

I am going to anchor and spend some time getting to know the boat and do the work that needs to be done and then getting some experience with her before attempting to sail her up to Monty's Marina in Brisvagus. Unless I can find a cheap DIY Boat Yard in NSW, I am in no hurry to go north the heat is not conducive to sanding boat hulls : )

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by zstine

Well, The OP clearly stated that exceeding 11hp would damage the boat. I suppose batteries could = boat & could be a misunderstanding. But I would make sure there's no structural issue and I understood the boat's limitations before leaving the dock. The OP clearly doesn't know this boat well and the representation he conveyed from the previous owner is a seaworthiness concern in my book.

Hate to see his new boat get swept onto a lee shore or something in his first delivery.

IMO, De-rating a motor 90% to protect batteries is just bad system design.

Where? I read it as the controller derated the 100 HP motor, else the boat could be damaged. Makes sense to me. Using a huge motor and driving it at 10% of rated power is likely how they are getting away with air cooling.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Sailing Ozzie

Hi Guys,

New to the forum but have been reading it on n off for years.
I've just bought a Roberts 45 with a Hyper 9 120HP Electric Motor.
It has a battery bank but it's currently not being charged by solar or wind, it will be eventually, but for now I just need to get it moving.
I am looking to buy a generator to charge the batteries... It'd be great to run the motor straight off the generator but therein lies my dilema.
Is it too hard? Should I just buy a small petrol generator to charge the batteries - petrol being dangerous onboard, but there will be some anyway for the tender- and save my money for boat renovation, or is it possible to run off a geni.
I spoke to Tim at EVWorks Western Oz (who was really helpful) who supplied the motor and he suggested I just buy a cheap generator and cheap battery chargers for now and he'll supply a quality charger once I have it moved and can tell him what batteries I have on board. He also said peak power of the motor is 80000watts. But the guy I bought the boat from says it's detuned via the operating software and only draws a max of 70amps and normal running is at only 30amps (120vdc) and suggests I could buy a diesel generator and use a bridge rectifier to change the 240v to 120vdc.... But that sounds dangerous on board a boat.
Buying a generator upfront without knowing how I intend to use it could be a waste of time, so I am seeking advice on what way I should go.

Another issue, I've read that 2 stroke engines can handle bad fuel that's sold in remote locations- I intend to cruise- so if I buy a 4 stroke petrol geni, I may run into reliability problems?


Does anyone have any use full opinion on what I should do?

The deal sounds a little sketchy to me.

It sounds like the owner knows the system though he isn’t certain of battery bank capacity (which would be highly suspect.)

Or is it that your knowledge of marine electrical systems is lacking and you are having trouble understanding /relaying what the owner has said?

How did the DPO charge the batteries? Why is he selling the boat? How long has he owned it? Who did the EP install and what was their qualifications?

Or is this an old boat with a wrecked diesel that you bought cheap, ripped the diesel out, stick a motor in, and now need to get off a mooring fast?

[Sailing Ozzie]

[QUOTE=SV Bacchus;3030393]

Originally Posted by Sailing Ozzie

Another issue, I've read that 2 stroke engines can handle bad fuel that's sold in remote locations- I intend to cruise- so if I buy a 4 stroke petrol geni, I may run into reliability problems?



I can't address any of the electrical issues but I can comment on the engine. I will say up front you will get many opinions as most everyone loves their outboard and will defend it to the death.

In the past year I have been traveling, off and on, with a group of about 5 (5 + our boat) buddy boats. All have modern 4cycle engines in the 15 to 25 HP range. Except us, we have an older Yamaha Enduro 15 HP 2cycle outboard. Every single 4cycle has had issues and I have pulled more than one back to the safety of their mothership.

We have owned the Yamaha for over 2 years, it came with the mothership when we initially purchased. I have never even flushed the engine with fresh water as most internal parts are SS (that is what makes it an Enduro)! I mix the oil in the gas to spec and have never had to change a spark plug. The engine starts first pull, every time, even when cold. When cold I will pull the choke but only when cold.

Going down all the islands from Florida to Grenada we have noticed an abundance of Enduro outboards and I have asked several folks, on different islands "why?" I was told nothing but positives and to sum the up: "best outboard you can own" and "If it doesn't start on the first pull, something is wrong" and "Much more powerful than comparable 4 stroke."

The last statement, from above, it undoubtable because 2 cycle engines have more torque than 4 strokes, will pull better and get you on plane faster.

One day about a month ago a sailboat ran aground on a reef here in Grenada. A call went out on the radio asking for anyone and everyone with Enduro outboards to respond to help pull the boat off.

Now for the negative: when we had the mothership surveyed prior to purchase the surveyor told us to keep the Enduro covered up. He said it was such a high demand item it would attract the less than desirable who would want it for themselves.

Caveat: All 2 strokes are not equal..

I would buy another in a heartbeat if i needed it but would have to do it here as you can't get the small 2cycles in the states anymore.

Final thought, not picking on 4cycles, there are plenty of good ones but I think they are more susceptible to bad fuels and shoddy routine maintenance.

Enough said..

Just my two cents worth.

Thanks for your comment!

A good point you make : )
I've heard similar things about 4 strokes running bad fuel.

I will look into sourcing an enduro model yamaha.

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

If something goes wrong, 120 volts DC will kill you just as dead as 240 volts AC.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another issue, I've read that 2 stroke engines can handle bad fuel that's sold in remote locations- I intend to cruise- so if I buy a 4 stroke petrol geni, I may run into reliability problems?

Neither two stroke or four will run on really bad (sour) gasoline. I read more reports of issues with poor quality diesel than gas. And you're not likely to find a two stroke generator, anyway.

I wish you luck, and hope you REALLY love that boat, because your electric propulsion is going to be expensive and for the time being, far more labor intensive than a plain old diesel engine.[/QUOTE]


Hiya, Thank You for the time it took to read and comment on my dilemma.
Yes I know 240v or 120vdc is lethal, it's a bit of a worry, when I was dreaming of an electric powered sailboat I was thinking a max of 48vdc, but this boat came up for sale.... for such a great price I couldn't pass it by.



I wasn't thinking about buying a 2 stroke geni, I was comparing the fuel problems of a 4 stroke on bad fuel to a 2 stroke and was wondering if I should buy a 4 stroke or a diesel.. does that make sense?



Cheers for the Luck : ) Yes it may be expensive and time consuming initially, but once it's sorted and charging with solar, I hope it will be trouble free and I'll never have to pay for fuel/diesel ever again... except for the tender outboard. Hoping to get an hour or two out of the electric motor, just enough to get me out of an anchorage and then sail.

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

A few thoughts. Depending on how long the move is have you thought about hiring a genset? If you only need it for a week could save having to buy something that then becomes redundent. If you are getting a gas genset as a temp solution look at open frame, much louder than something like the Honda but will be about 1/3 of the cost. The idea about gas being a less fussy fuel is not one I have heard, storing larg amounts of gas would be a safety issue and a better way of dealing with potential fuel contamination issues would be to fit a fuel scrubber. As a permenant solution for charging the batteries or running the engine in diesel electric mode might be to fit an inboard diesel DC generator that provides enough power to run at cruising speed. You say the boat will do 4kn at 30a so that would be 30x120 or 3.6Kw. No problem for a small DC genset.
The other thing I am wondering is that if the boat has ever been used it must have a means of charging, who would fit an electric motor without a charger!! Or is this a 'part install' that someone has abandoned before finishing?
I suggest you either get more info on the setup or look at getting a gas outboard rather than a geny. It is quite feisible to tow a 30ft boat with the dingy and outboad in and out of habour then sail it for the delivery as long as it is not to far or difficult. I can see potential for real problems if the electric motor is not properly set up.

Hiya Roland,
To be honest I hadn't thought about hiring a geni, it is a good idea, worst case scenario... absolute worst case scenario... is that I find too many issues and have to scrap the boat to make my money back or get my money back from him, so hiring a geni makes perfect sense in the short term.

He said he was using the set up for a year... but is very vague on how he charged it, I'll get some answers from him when I am sitting down with him face to face. It may very well be that he is lying and it is only an abandoned part project.

Yes, I am not keen on storing large amounts of petrol on a boat, I am hoping that once I have it all set up I can charge her on solar and keep some petrol as a back up.

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by MickB

If you want a cheap but reliable petrol gen set google Kings 3.5kva. It's open frame pull cord start very basic but will do the job and has a largish tank. AUD399. I live in Nth Qld so power supply in the wet is not terribly reliable. I picked one up for household power backup.

Cheers for the tip Mick
I will have a look at a Kings

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Something sounds inappropriate or incorrect as to the specifications.

OP stated the motor is rated for 80kw but its controller is derating the power supplied to about 8 kw. So reducing the boats propulsive force from about 100 hp to say 10 or 11 hp.

One needs to have exacting clarity of the motor controllers specifications as to DC voltage supply options and as to the rated amperage capacities, then one works back towards the power supply source requirements.

Don't even think about what kind of genny or battery bank, or power conversion electronics are necessary until there is complete clarity of how the motor controller is functioning and capable of functioning and also as to the specifications of the motor.

True; I guess I am relying on my faith in humanity that it is operational like the seller said....

Let's say I did decide to take the route of buying a big enough geni to run the motor straight off the geni, I wouldn't do that initially, I would just charge the batteries, motor to a near by safe anchorage and then get to know the system and later be able to run the motor straight off the geni as a back up. But as the marine electrician advised; it's not a good idea to even think about buying a geni for that until I can get an electrician out. So for now I'll just buy or rent a small petrol geni, charge the batteries and motor to a safe anchorage. No doubt plans will change once I am looking at her, but as I said in a previous post I was stressing and trying to come up with solutions so I had options for when I get there.

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by hamburking

The one thing you don't discuss in your post...Sailing. Its a sailboat.

Your setup with electric drive is EXCELLENT, provided you sail most of the time. The engine is just for getting in/out of docks/marinas or the last quarter mile into the sheltered bay to anchor.

Electric motors are GREAT. The problem is range. Battery technology is improving every day. But as of today, you will need a lot of batteries...like 10 or 20 or 30 to give a modest range of maybe a few hours of motoring at a reasonable speed.

I almost agree with your electrician et al...charge up the batteries at the dock. Use the engine sparingly to get to open water, then SAIL as close to your destination as possible. Before doing this, you may want to do a test...maybe run the engine at 30 amps for an hour or two to see what sort of range you currently have. But then you'll need 2 or 3 days to recharge the batteries fully.

I'm going to speculate that the boat needs new batteries...hence the seller's apparent lack of knowledge on the topic. Anyone with an electric drive absolutely knows the status and range of their batteries. Assume you will need all new batteries, costing several thousands of dollars.

I love the little honda genset. But it will take hours (or days) for it to charge your batteries, if you have a big bank, especially if they are old.

Please don't misunderstand. I think electric drive is excellent and I look forward to owning one myself one day. Once you get some solar, wind, and maybe hydro charging installed (Watt&Sea) you will have an awesome setup.

Do you follow Sailing Uma? They travel with an electric drive and have extensively documented their experience with it on their sailing channel: https://www.sailinguma.com/the-motor

What do people do when their engine dies? They sail. And maybe get a tow with a dinghy the first/last 100 feet if needed. I personally love sailing with no engine. I used to sail in/out of my busy marina with no engine. I sail on/off of anchorages and docks whenever possible. I've done this in boats up to 60 feet. And there are still people who enjoy sailing with no engine at all. Have you seen How to Sail Oceans: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTm...f_7nTLw/videos

I wish you luck, and please let us know how your delivery goes.

Hiya, I won't have to sail her out to open water, just to a near by anchorage where I can spend some time getting to know her and see what needs to be done. But yes I do plan.. once I have this issue sorted to sail and only rely on using the electric motor to get me out of anchorages/harbors. I will be doing lots of testing on charging and the range I get out of the battery bank before I take her out to open water, I am in no hurry.

I have mentally prepared myself that she will need new batteries.

Yes I am prepared to have to wait a while for the little geni to charge the batteries

Yes I have seen Sailing Uma, they are partly to blame for my desire to have an electric inboard.

I have also seen How to sail oceans, lot's of people forget that for centuries man has sailed without a motor... and lots of people with Lagoon Catamarans forget they have sails ha ha.

[Sailing Ozzie]

Originally Posted by zstine

This boat is not adding up. A Roberts 45 should have 60 to 90 hp (~50-60kW). the PO buys a motor with significantly higher output, then says "it will damage the boat if run higher than 11hp." That would freak me out! Is this sea worthy?? I highly doubt 3.6kW (4.6hp) will push that boat at 5knots, certainly not into any wind!! Did you take it for sea trials before purchase or have some way out of the contract?



The OP doesn't know the battery specs, make statements evident of structural issues and makes claims about performance that are dubious at best. I would be very concerned leaving the dock without another propulsion option, like a tow. And I'd find out why you can't push more than 11hp with the motor before using it.

Valid questions.
To be honest I doubt her seaworthyness, i expect I have my work cut out for me, worst case scenario i have to sell her for scrap, I will be able to get the majority of my money back just by selling the motor setup. But yes I also have an out to get my money back if needs be. Best case scenario I will have to spend months getting her sea worthy.

I agree; I imagine when the wind and current is working against me I will be in trouble, I will have to; as always sail to conditions.

He didn't say it was limited to 11hp, he said if it was at full power, the instant torque would start damaging things. I will be looking for structural damage as a first priority.