54hp Yanmar Starts on 3rd or 4th Try

[MitchM]

mack boring east coast distributor for yanmar should be able to tell you the parts manual number and the service manual number for your particular engines. do yourself a favor and order both manuals from your local yanmar distributor . ( mack boring does not sell 'direct' . if you check the boatdiesel.com website for your particular engine there is a huge thread about the start problems caused by the fancy manual bleed button on the filter..

[MitchM]

here is the hard start thread from boatdiesel.com:


Response #1 from: Got Diesel [email] Level 3 Member Date: December 13, 2008 - 07:39 AM
Is this just in your engine or do you know for a fact that there all others. Have you talked to the owners or just heard? Tim

Designated Engineer
2003 OLD DIXIE HWY,Fort Pierce ,
Florida, 34946,
United States
Tel: 954-562-7465, , Email
Response #2 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: December 13, 2008 - 09:46 AM
Tim, as local Yanmar service says, there are about 5-6 boats suffering from the same problem in Istanbul, all having same engine; Yanmar 4JH4AE. They are all new Beneteau or Jeanneau boats using the same engine. One of them is my friend. It failed several months later than mine. Yanmar service did the adjustment. It operated fine for several months, and then started to die in idle again just like in my case. Also a British sailor cruising in US coasts and having the same problem sent me an email asking advice. (He saw my letter about this issue in one of the forums months ago.)
Vedat


Response #3 from: Got Diesel [email] Level 3 Member Date: December 13, 2008 - 10:49 AM
How cold is cold? Tim

Designated Engineer
2003 OLD DIXIE HWY,Fort Pierce ,
Florida, 34946,
United States
Tel: 954-562-7465, , Email
Response #4 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: December 13, 2008 - 11:40 AM
In summer conditions, even under 35 deg.C. What I mean from cold starting is engine at rest for at least 3 hrs. Vedat


Response #5 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 06, 2009 - 03:47 AM
Latest new on starting failure issue: It is found out that factory installed secondary fuel filter with a push button at top for manual bleeding was not proper. So they recommend to replace it with the one having no push buttons. We did so, and seems OK (for at least 3 days up to now)


Response #6 from: Got Diesel [email] Level 3 Member Date: January 06, 2009 - 04:00 AM
Please let us know if it takes care of the problem for good. Tim

Designated Engineer
2003 OLD DIXIE HWY,Fort Pierce ,
Florida, 34946,
United States
Tel: 954-562-7465, , Email
Response #7 from: Tomas Kempe [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 06, 2009 - 05:43 AM
Seems that you had air in the system either from a leaking "rubber pump", perhaps through the seal. In hindsight some type of fuel starvation, symptoms quite typical. What impresses me is that Yanmar do not address the problem, that they had no clue about it the fist palace, of fixing up the priming filter. Next you figure out how to prime. Why did I think you may be your own best mechanic.


Response #8 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 06, 2009 - 08:03 AM
Tomas, thanks for your contribution. Since some other boats with same engine also suffer from the same symptoms, it seems that it is not an ordinary leaking case. It might be a wrong decision to install a manual pump type filter to a system having an electrical feed pump. Rubber of the pump might get defected under the pressure provided by the electric feed pump when you turn the key, until you start the engine. Or something else. What local Yanmar dealer said was, if this works fine in mine, they are going to change the filters of all 4JH4AE engines whether they suffered from the same situation or not aware yet. The surprising part is, I wrote this problem to the manufacturer several times, and it took almost a year to come to this not-proved yet solution. During this period, I insisted to the local dealer many times that it seems to be a leak in fuel system, but they rejected it without a doubt, and told me that factory instructed them to open the efficiency setting on the injection pump side. They broke the sealed cover and readjusted this sensitive setting many many times, but no use. Besides wasting a year, now I have a misadjusted injection pump. Thanks to Yanmar.


Response #9 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 12, 2009 - 05:26 AM
Yanmar's last solution to replace the filter failed also. Engine still dies at idle unless you raise the idle RPM remarkably high before starting. Yanmar couldn't diagnose the cause for almost a year. So let's hope Yanmar gives the necessary attention, and acts as a responsible manufacturer.


Response #10 from: Tomas Kempe [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 12, 2009 - 02:35 PM
Allegro: I am no expert but like trouble shooting. Why not try this, you may have some backflow from the filter. If you top off the filter with Diesel and check if you could do a normal start with a bit of throttle position. If it works, next time, remove the filter and see if fuel has drained out. If this back flow is the problem put a back flow valve on the line. You could also put a transparent tubing (vinyl, or PVC) next to the filter intake and see if it drains back, perhaps the first is better not cutting things up. You could have a slight vacuum in the tank that will pull some back when still, check the vent tubing that there is no restriction.


Response #11 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 12, 2009 - 03:12 PM
Tomas, your guess about a backflow seems quite logical. Does this also mean that, electrical feed pump which is located just before the filter, and in a lower position can not hold the fuel, and it flows back. Without using any check-valves, a pump should not let fuel drain back when not in operation. Do I think right?


Response #12 from: Tomas Kempe [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 12, 2009 - 04:37 PM
It depends on the pump perhaps, I think fuel could flow through it backwards. It all depends on the height difference between the fuel tank and the engine filter. I am not sure but the Racor may have a backflow valve (it seem not to drain when I top off) and then this would be less likely. It is easy to try. Where to get a valve I am not sure about but NAPA may have it, a simple ball valve would do. Check that the venting is not restricted first.


Response #13 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 12, 2009 - 04:52 PM
Thanks, Tomas. I'll check the system upon your comments.


Response #14 from: hugh C. Brock [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 12, 2009 - 05:16 PM
The other thing that may be adding to the problem is that the governor isn't moving the rack toward full fuel fast enough. The engine starts in full fuel no matter where you put the throttle lever. When the engine comes up to the RPM's that you have the throttle set for it moves the rack in the fuel pump back toward no fuel. If the engine slows down too much the rack moves back towards full fuel. It may be that when the rack moves back towards low fuel after start up the rack is moving too far or its is moving too slowly. It would seem to me if you had an air problem you wouldn't be able to restart the engine with out either bleeding the engine or cranking for a long time to get fuel back to the injection pump.


Response #15 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 14, 2009 - 03:25 PM
Tomas, your advice to put a transparent hose between lift pump and filter seemed to clarify the problem. Besides, I also put another trasparent hose before the seperator. This is what happened: After bleeding, and starting the engine, there were lots of bubles in both hoses. But engine didn't stop. (May be because of electrical lift pump.) When I increased RPM in idle, and back to neutral, bubles got bigger and more. Then I stopped the engine. After several hours of rest, the column of fuel in the upper part of the hose just before the filter, fuel has flown back, and left the upper 7 cm. section of the hose empty. This meant that same volume of air has escaped from somewhere between tank and filter. Then I took off the separator out, and by-passed the fuel directly from tank to filter. After bleeding and starting the engine the bubbles almost disappeared. Only very tiny ones. Again I stopped the engine, and after several hours of rest, upper 7 cm. section of the hose was empty as before. But this time engine started smoothly in spite of the fact of where this 7 cm of air column has gone.

Result was: Fuel seperator was leaking air, when I cancelled it the big and frequent bubbles disappeared. But very tiny bubbles remained which wasn't sufficient to stall the engine any more while starting. But there was a place between tank and pump which still leaks. The only connection is an Algae X. Next, I'll cancel Algae X and observe if the remaining tiny bubbles will also disappear.

Thanks for your valuable advice. Though I can not say yet that this is the permanent solution, I can feel that after a year, this is the closest point to solution I've come so far. By the way you have proven that you are more expert than Yanmar people.


Response #16 from: Tomas Kempe [email] Level 1 Member Date: January 14, 2009 - 03:54 PM
Allegro: Nice progress. You may want to put some dope or teflon tape on the brass fittings. The o-ring in the Racor lid may be twisted or crooked. I make sure it is seated symmetrically in the lid when putting it on, I figure a potential leak point even when tight. Tom


Response #17 from: Phdsailor [email] Guest Date: March 19, 2009 - 08:35 PM
I just found this forum. My Ben 40 with the Yanmar 4JH4AE is doing exactly what has been described. Seems the fix is still not obvious.

Daryl


Response #18 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: March 23, 2009 - 03:57 AM
I recommend you to replace the seperator with some other type. I put a Racor type seperator, and also replaced the fine fuel filter with no push button type. It´s almost two months, and engine did not fail up to day. Seems air sucked into system by seperator or filter, or both.


Response #19 from: Pete0123 [email] Level 1 Member Date: September 13, 2009 - 06:59 PM
I repowered with the 4jh4ae in September 2008 in Southern California. Engine worked well for about 3 months, then began cold (after 2 - 3 hours) start problem. When I crack the fuel bleed screw, there are lots of bubbles. I replaced the selector valves for the fuel filters in July 2009, still same problem. I will now follow advice in this forum.


Response #20 from: Tony Athens [email] Forums Moderator Date: September 13, 2009 - 07:54 PM
Pete,

#1--Install an outboard type squeeze bulb inline with your engines fuel line is a very convienent spot. It will make it safe and easy to start the engine now, and easier after you find the issue when you change a fuel filter. Go to the article section on the web site.


#2-- you have an air leak some place, or you have a small one-way valve in the engines fuel system that is not seating 100%.. Both cn be tought to find, but that´s the issue 99.9% of the time

You can start by pressuring the system to about 20 PSI and going from there with a paint brush and some soap.. You could start at the most likely place that that would be the fuel dip tube connection/plumbing at the top of the fuel tank.. Lots of choices and it all comes dowm to being "hands-on" to find it..


Tony

Seaboard Marine
2947 W. 5th St.,Oxnard,
California , 93030,
United States
Tel: (805) 3826287, Fax: (805) 984-3474, , Email
Response #21 from: Allegro [email] Level 1 Member Date: September 21, 2009 - 12:16 PM
Good news.

Cause of starting failure in 4JH4AE has been found. Yanmar recommended to replace the push button type fine fuel filter which is susspected for air leak. Dealer installed a non button type. Also as instructed by Yanmar, he added a by-pass line from filter to fuel return hose for automatic bleeding. From then on engine started in the first key turn. Never needed a second attempt.

[jarod]

Has anyone found resolution to this defect on the Yanmar 54hp (4jh4ae)? I have been experiencing the exact same issue with a virtually new motor. I repowered 5 months ago and have 60 total hours on the engine. The engine starts ok sometimes... generally it stalls after a few seconds of running and has to be cranked and throttled way up for it to restart. It seems to run good once going, but not happy having this issue on a brand new Yanmar. It sounds like the filter housing change was not a permanent fix?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by jarod

The engine starts ok sometimes... generally it stalls after a few seconds of running and has to be cranked and throttled way up for it to restart. It seems to run good once going, but not happy having this issue on a brand new Yanmar. It sounds like the filter housing change was not a permanent fix?

These are the symptoms I am experiencing, it sounds like you have the same problem.
Replacing the secondary filter housing seems like a permanent fix providing there is no other air leaks, at least from the reports I am hearing. As I have redone my entire fuel system and replaced every component at least once so I am expecting a permanent fix from the change.
Yanmar are sourcing replacement components, but at the moment they are out of stock.
I will certainly report on the success (or otherwise) of the change.

[Chief Engineer]

Why the boat diesel quote....too long.

[MitchM]

the complete boatdiesel thread demonstrates that this has been a serious issue on these 4JH4 E engines since december 2008. yet as of august 2010 , owners don't know about the fix. why did yanmar did not recognize the problem and issue the service bulletin much more quickly than 9/09? or notify owners of record of that engine ? this 4 JHE engine is the stock OEM in a lot of large late-model beneteaus and hunters which are common charter boats. it seems that some local yanmar dealers may STILL not be aware of the problems...

[noelex 77]

I have posted a new thread with hopefully my solution to the problem
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post525899