Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by sea dragon

My SR40 deck lockers are badly designed and rotten, I would like to design the new ones better than they were originally designed and built.

The idea of the wet lockers is good, but they are prone to rotting out.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve on Brown's original design?

They have changed from wet lockers to "rot lockers.

Brown called them "rot boxes", due to your issue...

If you look at my vented deck "dry lockers" in past posts, you will see what I did, at John Marple's suggestion.

The easiest access to photos is in my book "Anchoring and Mooring the Cruising Multihull", available as E book or paperback, from Amazon.

Fair winds,
Mark Johnson

[blewett_john]

Originally Posted by blewett_john

I have listed my boat on Craigslist. The link to the ad is https://providence.craigslist.org/boa/6260841566.html

If anyone is interested you can call me at 401-297-9652. I have a friend nearby that will be able to show the boat, or I can just tell you where it is. You should contact my service manager at Hinckley Yacht Services before visiting the boat. I will provide his name when you call.

It is best to copy and paste the craigslist link. If you just click on it it comes back as an error

[sea dragon]

Cadence,Owly,& Mark,thanks for the replies.
I ordered your book,Mark,and looked up some of your posts(In response to me asking the exact same questions several years ago(Ha Ha!).
Funny how easy it is to put boat repair off for years.
I opened one area and I can see that the first thing is to remove all the rot in that area.
As much as I've been dreading this job, it feels really good to cut out the cancer in an area and replace it with good stuff.
I've owned this boat for 30 years, and I was afraid that I would find that all the structural ply in the boat was rotting out .
That isn't the case,and now that my kids have gone off to college, I'm looking for a big project to take my mind off the "empty nest"at home.
It looks like I found one.
Is the boat worth it?
Yes.
A couple of weeks ago we were out sailing in a 15/20 kt gusts and eased off from close hauled a bit.
The hull lifted and started flying a hull.
The whole boat accelerated and we were flying along at 8kts!
Sea runner is an apt name for these boats.
I've got some good ideas on how to re-configure the new(Dry/wet lockers)
To be more usefull.
Mark's pictures of all that dry clean gear is in stark contrast to the scummy wet mess that things turn into in my wet lockers

[Cavalier MK2]

Hey SeaDragon, you might have meant Cavalier unless Cadence sent a PM. In any case the Nicol has a great flow through vent system with bow and stern underwing vents. These are like the cowling in my sketch, water entry is almost impossible. What makes it all work are no deck hatches into the wing to leak or divert air flow. Cross' designs have similar trouble free wings where access to wing storage is from inside the hulls. Those hatches have to be water tight and strong when dogged down for waves. I'd save weight and trouble and skip them. Unless you are docking every few minutes it is pretty easy to just get the dock lines from a wing shelf through the ama but I know Sea Runner owners like the convenience they are used to.

The Newick vents have strong air flow because of the pressure differences of moving air on the deck and underwing. Just like a airplane wing one surface is higher pressure than the other. They can work without a cowling underneath if the surface is horizontal. Rain and deck spray just drops straight through.

Good luck on the repairs, There are lots of ways to skin the cat, or tri. The only damage I've had was to cockpit coaming where no drains were put in but vent holes were. Easily fixed.

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by sea dragon

Cadence,Owly,& Mark,thanks for the replies.

I ordered your book,Mark,and looked up some of your posts(In response to me asking the exact same questions several years ago(Ha Ha!).

Funny how easy it is to put boat repair off for years.

I opened one area and I can see that the first thing is to remove all the rot in that area.

As much as I've been dreading this job, it feels really good to cut out the cancer in an area and replace it with good stuff.

I've owned this boat for 30 years, and I was afraid that I would find that all the structural ply in the boat was rotting out .

That isn't the case,and now that my kids have gone off to college, I'm looking for a big project to take my mind off the "empty nest"at home.

It looks like I found one.

Is the boat worth it?

Yes.

A couple of weeks ago we were out sailing in a 15/20 kt gusts and eased off from close hauled a bit.

The hull lifted and started flying a hull.

The whole boat accelerated and we were flying along at 8kts!

Sea runner is an apt name for these boats.

I've got some good ideas on how to re-configure the new(Dry/wet lockers)

To be more usefull.

Mark's pictures of all that dry clean gear is in stark contrast to the scummy wet mess that things turn into in my wet lockers

[emoji1360]Basically, I left the bottom drain, but put a clam shell cover over it, so wave slap does not go in.

Then, after epoxy and or epoxy/glassing the entire interior about 5 coats, sand half off, and finish with 5 more, left un sanded. This was with gray pigment, made by mixing white and a little black to a gallon of resin, before the project. The change in mix ratio is minimal.

Next I made a combing around the opening, with a "U" cut out on the outer forward corner, for anchor lines/chain.

This was followed by Dry hatches with a 3/4 " skirt, and foam gasket underneath.

The hatch is hinged on the high side, next to the cabin, held up with a single spring type hatch holder, and each of my 3 deck hatches has solar vents on it, which pull dry air in through the 2" bottom drain hole, which dries out the damp contents.

Only in really hard conditions, pounding to windward in a seaway, or taking on green water, do the contents get wet!

99% of the time, my cleaning gear, buckets, AMPLE ground tackle, water bags, dive gear, fenders, etc., get wet.

We started our (10 year total) project in '91, along with John Marple's help in consultation.

The Dry deck hatches, 4' taller rig, sailed always as a sloop, a big "lapper" instead of genoa, moving the running backs 4' forward, fully battened main, and centrally located engine, were all his suggestions.

Then, the engineering and execution was my problem.

Fair winds,
Mark

[catsketcher]

I have a wet anchor locker in my cat. It has been going fine for 17 years - no rot.

Ply is fabulous when covered by fibreglass and coves. My advice with any problems with the Searunner wet lockers would be to cove and glass the interior - everywhere but the "roof".

I tend to use glass to make my hatch covers. I just make a flat mould that is a perimeter on the table - I then glass inside this mould and up the perimeter a few cm. Scrap foam is used in the middle but not the edges. That being said the new anchor hatch (new anchor winch) is ply and cedar with the edges glassed over. (To glass over the thin ply edges I cut the sheathing cloth into 50mm wide strips at 45 degrees to the weave. This makes it very malleable.

To go back to the hatch, I would put a large cove in to cover the timber edging. Use a light microballoons epoxy mix for the fillet. Then cover the sides, and bottom with a layer of surfboard or sheathing cloth for a hatch that takes some abuse - chain etc. Doing coves is easy once you get the knack and makes it hard for any water to hang around in corners. Epoxy saturate the interior upper surface - it won't get any physical damage so no glass is needed. Or don't worry about the glass if there is little physical damage to the interior - just do a few rolls of epoxy - try to get it wet on tacky - roll thick coats on when the previous coat can just take a thumbprint - don't let it go off if you want to save sanding. Glass will be more a hassle but will never check - it is up the the usage.

cheers

Phil

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I have a wet anchor locker in my cat. It has been going fine for 17 years - no rot.



Ply is fabulous when covered by fibreglass and coves. My advice with any problems with the Searunner wet lockers would be to cove and glass the interior - everywhere but the "roof".



I tend to use glass to make my hatch covers. I just make a flat mould that is a perimeter on the table - I then glass inside this mould and up the perimeter a few cm. Scrap foam is used in the middle but not the edges. That being said the new anchor hatch (new anchor winch) is ply and cedar with the edges glassed over. (To glass over the thin ply edges I cut the sheathing cloth into 50mm wide strips at 45 degrees to the weave. This makes it very malleable.



To go back to the hatch, I would put a large cove in to cover the timber edging. Use a light microballoons epoxy mix for the fillet. Then cover the sides, and bottom with a layer of surfboard or sheathing cloth for a hatch that takes some abuse - chain etc. Doing coves is easy once you get the knack and makes it hard for any water to hang around in corners. Epoxy saturate the interior upper surface - it won't get any physical damage so no glass is needed. Or don't worry about the glass if there is little physical damage to the interior - just do a few rolls of epoxy - try to get it wet on tacky - roll thick coats on when the previous coat can just take a thumbprint - don't let it go off if you want to save sanding. Glass will be more a hassle but will never check - it is up the the usage.



cheers



Phil

Glassing all surfaces is best, as well as lots of epoxy. I also put a 1/6" vinyl pad on the anchor side and on the dive gear side, that houses wet suits, fins, mask, etc... I use Dry deck tiles, for better air movement. My wet dive gear dries out in the wing lockers!

Dri hatches are vastly superior, especially on Searunners, because the stringers and such inside make them very "busy", so they all trap water, mold, mildew, mud, and gravel.

This is why John Marple's, who has the collective feedback of over 2,000 Searunners in his head, suggested dri hatches, calling wet lockers... "ROT BOXES". Jim Brown concours.

Without my lockers being dri, the contents would suffer a great deal, even the galvanizing on chain.

Having done this for 47 years now, with 15 years as a full time liveaboard, (covering tens of thousands of miles) and my last boat having had a wet hatch... I assure all that there is no comparison, especially when it comes to keeping the contents pristine.

Dri hatches are also best on a Searunner, because most of their contents are not ground tackle.

My book gives photos of the gear in them, and I did not clean it up for the photo. Most had been in there for over 20 years!

I also vent the amas when not under way, with a pvc side hull home made dorade, out of a 90 degree elbow glued to a Beckson deck plate.

Past post give the building method and photos.
These keep the amas dri and mildew free. I even have them screened, to keep dirt dobbers out!

Here and in the main hull, I ALWAYS keep a dusty dry bilge, for comfort (less humidity), mildew prevention, and so if I ever see water, I know a hose is dripping or something.

Fair winds all,
Mark

[sea dragon]

[QUOTE
The Dry deck hatches, 4' taller rig, sailed always as a sloop, a big "lapper" instead of genoa, moving the running backs 4' forward, fully battened main,
Mark[/QUOTE]
Mark,
I also have the taller rig(54ft)sail as a sloop.and have a fully battened main.
I have a couple of questions:
What is the difference between a genoa and a lapper?
Is it a flatter all purpose type sail on a furler?
I've been dreaming of something like that.
and:
Moving the running backs forward never occured to me.
If it's not needed to have them that far back, I would like to move them forward to help the main while reaching
Cavalier,
The outside hatches are really handy.I wouldn't want to do without them for anchors,fuel jugs and tanks,ropes,fenders and any number of other things.
I just need them dry and well ventilated.
I have some of the ones you describe also.
They work great, but it's a pain to cliomb into the hull so they don't get used much

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

Glassing all surfaces is best, as well as lots of epoxy. I also put a 1/6" vinyl pad on the anchor side and on the dive gear side, that houses wet suits, fins, mask, etc... I use Dry deck tiles, for better air movement. My wet dive gear dries out in the wing lockers!

Dri hatches are vastly superior, especially on Searunners, because the stringers and such inside make them very "busy", so they all trap water, mold, mildew, mud, and gravel.

This is why John Marple's, who has the collective feedback of over 2,000 Searunners in his head, suggested dri hatches, calling wet lockers... "ROT BOXES". Jim Brown concours.

Without my lockers being dri, the contents would suffer a great deal, even the galvanizing on chain.

Having done this for 47 years now, with 15 years as a full time liveaboard, (covering tens of thousands of miles) and my last boat having had a wet hatch... I assure all that there is no comparison, especially when it comes to keeping the contents pristine.

Dri hatches are also best on a Searunner, because most of their contents are not ground tackle.

My book gives photos of the gear in them, and I did not clean it up for the photo. Most had been in there for over 20 years!

I also vent the amas when not under way, with a pvc side hull home made dorade, out of a 90 degree elbow glued to a Beckson deck plate.

Past post give the building method and photos.
These keep the amas dri and mildew free. I even have them screened, to keep dirt dobbers out!

Here and in the main hull, I ALWAYS keep a dusty dry bilge, for comfort (less humidity), mildew prevention, and so if I ever see water, I know a hose is dripping or something.

Fair winds all,
Mark

The lapper has a high clew, and is shaped like a yankee, but coming back 3' past the shrouds, and being 4' taller on a taller mast, it has the same square footage as a genoa!

It is VERY heavily constructed, and mounted on a roller furler (ProFurl).

I can fly full sail up to the upper 20s unless hard on the wind, in which case I roll in a few feet at about 25. This is usually 9 knots, hard on the wind, or a bit more on a reach.

At 30 knots, I roll in some more, but if it is sustained, and in 10+ ' waves, I raise the staysail and strike the lapper entirely.

This slows the boat about a knot, but she levels out and stops pounding.

(Off the wind, she never pounds much).

The only down side to this arrangement, is in light air. In 8 knots of wind or less, the heavy lapper is stiff and less efficient. Then I might only make 5 knots, unless I raise my asymmetrical spinnaker, in a sock. Only then do I get decent light air performance. I can usually go about the wind speed with it.

My boat was designed for longevity, safety, simplicity, and ease of operation, (a geriatric rig), vs ultimate speed. She has served me well!

The runners were moved one station forward, so that when at sea (vs sailing in bays rivers or sounds), the runners are attached and tight all the time. This gives redundancy, and the boom can still be let out almost to the point that the sail touches the swept back lowers.

In easy conditions, on a run or broad reach... only then I slack the quick adjust snap shackle turnbuckles, so that I can move the synthetic runners out of the way, and then the boom can move out another foot.

I now use a handy billy block and tackle as a preventer, to pull the boom down, to keep the belly of the sail off of the swept back lowers.

This all works great, on all points of sail.

In raising my mast 4', I raised the spreaders, runners, and swept backs, proportionately.

If you move your runners one station forward, they will have more effect side to side, but less pulling aft, so you will need them fairly loose until on the wind with the staysail. Then, with handle style turnbuckles, you tighten them a LOT!

When using the headsail, the runners can be made up, ready for use, but slack, so that the mast leans in column, vs taking on an "S" curve, because the strain is on the headstay, and the middle of the mast is too stiff.

I seldom use the staysail these days, but in a pinch, have gone to windward with it and a double reefed main, at 10 knots, in well over 10' seas, and 45 knots of wind, for extended periods! The motion was HORRIBLE!

I no longer do dumb **** as much these days, so would fall off, slow down, and look for an easier landfall!
[emoji1360]
Mark

[Cavalier MK2]

We all agree that if you have to have a hatch you need a dry sealing one. The only trouble free wet storage is a vent wing. I really can't stand exposed jerry cans, fenders and the like though.

I'm with Phil on not glassing the top of the compartment, if you take care of the ounces the pounds take care of themselves. My anchor storage is in a bow well. Vented and drained as well as glassed with a dry hatch it hasn't had problems.

It is also worth pointing out that any hatch close to the amas is going to get more of a workout punching into bigger seas to windward as the boat heels and wavetops run onto the deck.. So they need to be able to be dogged down. This is a challenge wing deck tris have that cats don't.

[catsketcher]

Mark, am I reading you right - you don't use the staysail? I am surprised. I would have thought it would have been the go to sail in strong winds. Why not use it instead of furling the genoa.

[sea dragon]

Mark, is your staysail on a furler also?
Now that I'm in my sixties,I need to make the boat easier for use by an old guy.
Getting on and off the boat from a dinghy safely is one thing I've been mulling over.I keep my boat at anchor
I have an idea how to make a removable step down platform between the port hull and stern,but I need to mock it up to see if it will work,
It would be at the level of the bottom of the underwings 2 ft. wide and level.
It would be usefull for many things(fishing,loading and unloading the dinghy,mounting a boarding ladder ect.It could be left on for most of the time,but removed when things get dicey
The water is 45 degrees in my part of the world which can kill you quickly.
Getting back onboard from swimming with reduced arm strength needs serious thought.
Where I'm anchored, if I fell overboard and couldn't get back on the boat. I'm not at all sure I could get to shore before hypothermia would take me under for good.

It's not such a problem on a 34 since they are lower to the water.

[Cavalier MK2]

I'd hate to take a hit in the winds under 8 knots department is summertime winds in the PNW. In the light winds a tri can keep sailing with the right set up while the monos power. I've seen lapper rigs on monos and the trend is to use a code zero/screacher in the light stuff which would take care of that range.

The downside is the expensive hardware as well as the sail. You could use the same furler on the code zero and staysail, stowing the rolled up sail not in use.

My Nicol is rigged as a double headsail sloop with a removable inner forestay I added. The staysail is for strong winds but in practical use the genoa can be furled enough to not need it though the shape suffers. Typically I'd think about the staysail to windward if winds were going to stay past 30 knots. And if winds were staying past 30 knots I'd try not to be sailing to windward all day! Offwind the staysail is great with the spinnaker or used with the genoa on a close reach.

I have a lighter genoa which is used most of the time and a heavier 135 which gets put on if winds look like they are staying above 20 knots. The sails you use are influenced by the winds of your area.

As to a staysail furler I think whatever you do being able to remove it to make tacking easier would be the most help most of the time. One cutter rig I found handy was to have the staysail on a boom so it could self tack used with a large yankee. The yankee went around easily tacking and you still have only one set of sheets to tend tacking.

[Seafarer24]

Originally Posted by Jimske

No I wasn't aware of that rally. I did go on the rally to the 1500 some years ago. I've made the trip to the BVI and back twice on the outside. Never done the inside. Going alone I'm thinking about day hopping as much as possible and going inside. I have plenty of time.

The Sail to the Sun Rally is all about going down the ICW. Here is an article about last year's event:

http://www.cruisingworld.com/sail-to...-gets-underway

Here is a video made by the Rally Organizer about doing the trip down the ICW.

https://bloggingtheicw.blogspot.com/...uth-video.html

If you are on Facebook, you can join the "Sail to the Sun" group. I know of at least one person there who is looking to crew on a boat for this trip, having recently sold his own. If you are not on FB, message me with your contact info and I'll pass it along.

[sea dragon]

I just recieved my copy of Marks book and started reading it.
Excellent!
I'm learning allot from this book.
Any one with a cruising multihull should own this book.
I have never considered small diameter chain because I thought the links would chafe through easier due to the smaller diameter of the chain.
1/4" chain sounds Very small diameter,but I suppose the alloy makes it work?
i must admit that
The visual of riding out a 60+ knot gale on a 40 ft boat with an aluminium anchor attached to 1/4 inch chain gives me the major heebie jeebies coming from old stlye steel anchors with heavy chain mentality.
I can't quite get my head around it.
Never tried using a bridle but I will now.
Also never considered anything but 3 strand for line.
It would be great to have something easier to use.
I've always used Danforth,CQR,& Bruce mainly because it's what I started using.
These modern anchors sound great,
Time to join the modern world, anchor-wise.
Thanks for putting this information out there!
Allot to think about in that book.
Cavalier:
It's very true that in the PNW most winds are light variable winds