Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

[Mark Johnson]

SEA DRAGON:
You know... one problem with trying to communicate over such a forum as this, VS over a beer anchored out at a boat party, Is that you can't see the person's body language for one... AND we all (myself included), sometimes respond to a post without "carefully" reading the person's previous posts first. It is a setup for misunderstanding.

If you look back, you'll see that there was ONLY one comment that I made, adressed "to you" about engines on Searunners. That was when I called you by name, and explained away your misconception about the proximity of my SC28s sled to the hull. That was the full extent of it, nothing else I said was meant for you.

I described it in one paragraph, then RETURNED to talking to the folks that I am usually talking to: "Those who are new to all of this, OR are undecided and looking for new information on a subject, and open to others experiences". I am only trying to help "them", not get into a debate with others, who have their minds made, or closed on the subject.

The heated back & forth that is so common on CF is of absolutely no interest to me, and "generally", we don't do that on this thread. We try to speak to each other with kindness & respect, even when we don't agree.

I made this as clear as I possibly could, that NONE of my honest & accurate engine comparisons, (regarding cruising "utility" & "options"), were meant for you, nor was I talking to you at all. I said so specifically, and said, point blank: "I AM NOT TALKING TO YOU"... In no way was I trying to change your mind about anything...

I do, however disagree with you about your statement that: "I can't say what is right for you". In this case I can, because you told us all! What is right for you is exactly what you have! You say it serves your purpose, you like it, "worts & all", and will never change. What else can be said? For you, what you have is perfect... I have no doubt at all that it works great for you.

Like I said, The above was clear from the beginning, I never push my views on anyone, and my further comments were solely addressed to the "others" I mentioned, not you.

I have already apologized for any confusion about this, and don't know what else I can say.



ABOUT SEARUNNERS IN GENERAL:
A lot of folks have opinions about things like "Jim's wonderful Scrimshaw", who have never actually seen her. Did you know that a large part of the interior is bare (unpainted/uncoated) plywood? I love Scrimshaw too, but...
Consider that the "original concept" Searunner is totally obsolete. Many things have changed.

Jim's boat is also quite different from the original concept... These boats have evolved with the times. He has added a sugar scoop transom, a different rudder, larger saildrive OB engine on a sled, (vs the aft mounted 4HP he started with), and I assume he no longer uses the "bucket head" in a crowded anchorage. (I do agree btw, that the new version of his OB kicker on a sled, is the "best" power option for this boat, as I previously made clear)...

Very few folks have no electrical system at all, no fans, etc... and still have ONLY kerosene lamps for light. John Marples started his 10 year cruise with kerosene lamps, and almost burned the boat down more than once. He changed his mind!

Rigs, materials, and sailplans have changed too, along with electronics and navigation. Who still relies only on a sextant, and has no GPS?

Aux power wise... The original larger boats were all designed for what was then available, a long/tall/narrow, GASOLINE Atomic 4. All similar HP diesels at the time, were SO large and SO heavy as to be out of the question! The dangerous/leaky/stinky, RIGIDLY MOUNTED Atomic 4, (usually with non water cooled "hot exhaust"), was neither sound, smell, heat, temperature, nor vibration, insulated. I know... I cruised on La Una, the first SR 37, back in the 70s. Her HOT galvanized exhaust pipe, was so rusted out, (and gassing us), that I had to patch it with a roll of aluminum foil & duct tape! YIKES!

These beast were SO damned obnoxious, that almost anything looked better as an alternative, even an OB motor, or NO engine at all. JIM's advocating these alternatives to an inboard engine, were in comparison to the Atomic 4s that I describe above. Compared to those Atomic 4s, I agree with him, I'd rather have the alternative too!

With the advent of small but powerful, high RPM diesels, (like Beta or Yanmar), all of this changed. With a shorter, lighter, smaller shape, another more accessible location could be used for the engine, IF one chose. With rubber feet, vibration ceased, and with a sealed & insulated engine compartment, sound, heat, and smell issues disappeared. Also, with the change from gasoline to diesel fuel, the range was doubled and risk of having an inboard was reduced exponentially. The NEW alternative had a bigger prop turning slow, (for far better thrust), was lighter, smaller, and a totally different animal...

Just like most of the stuff in the great old "Construction Manuel", it is all dated. Except of coarse Jo Hudson's fantastic cartoons, which will live beyond us all. "You weldum aluminum"?

Point being, the modern sailboat, and Searunners in particular, have evolved into something very different over the years, and thank God for that.

[sea dragon]

[QUOTE=rossad;1157720 And one last thing, a diesel lasts10 times longer, heats the hot water, keeps the freezer and every other modern thing you ever want on boat going when the wind stops and the sun doesnt shine. But ok it costs more.[/QUOTE]

Great!
More expensive,complicated crap I don't need and couldn't care less about.
OK Roussad and Mark,
There's only one way to settle this:
I'm throwing down the gauntlet
I hereby challenge you both to a race around Vancouver Island.(1200 miles)
This is very challenging Trimaranning grounds
Especially the west coast
Motoring is allowed
Losers(you guys)have to wear a frilly pink dress and lipstick for a month.
I'm leaving July 1st.

Roy,
That sterncastle in your boat looks great!
It makes me want to whip out the sawzall and do some cosmetic surgery on my aft cabin.
It's amazing how little changes can make such a big difference

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by pwratch

Sorry about the link (copied from Google Search). Here is the page address:

www.seawindcats.com/index.pl%3Fpage%3D584

The boat is indeed "Magic Carpet".

You are talking about my Australian friends Chris & Karen, on their 34' X 5' headroom Magic carpet. We met in the Chesapeake 7 or 8 years ago...

Their very successful 10 year voyage around the world, is well published on the Internet, and they now sail the GBR.

"For their small, easily propelled cat", an OB installation seemed the best possible option. Cats can mount the OB motors well forward of the stern, the engine doesn't want to get dunked from being on the leeward side, (like on side mounted tris), and the boat was simply too small to warrant inboard engines. I would do the same...

I'm sure that the "limitations" of an OB installation "on their boat", were far fewer of them, (than it would be on a large Searunner for example), because their design lent itself to an OB installation, far more than inboards.

I don't remember the specifics of their install, but they may be willing to help you if needs be?

Their cruise was successful, (fewer powering options and all), because in all of the respects I mentioned previously, they took the boats limitations into account in all of their decisions, (where to go, when to go, wind angle, current, etc).

If a boat lends itself to it, and the power limitations are taken into account, small OB aux. cruisers can do just fine!

M.

[Mark Johnson]

Ross,
You are SO lucky to be living in such a beautiful area, that as far as "sailing to paradise", you are already there!

When in full time cruising/liveaboard mode with our little Delphys, she was so laden with the trappings of living anchored out, (with NO particular country or land base), that going out for a quick daysail, just never seemed to happen. It was still quite adventurous, but life revolved around diving for dinner from the dink, and the subsequent anchorage social life. We did make some life long friends, but "sailing" was business... It was about moving from one country to another, in as safe and painless a way as possible. "performance" was not really part of the experience, and 8 or 9 knots was quite fast enough. We were in no hurry at all!

Now that we are Stateside, (by default), and back in work mode, we have an entirely different boating experience, and after 2 bitter winters still on the boat, we have rented a land base. Now I spend a lot of my time in total refurbishment mode, (as it becomes due), and we use the boat for fast daysails and long weekends at Cape Lookout. We now enjoy NOT having the trappings of full time life aboard, trying to run us out!

Local cruising, and daysailing for the pleasure of it, (in season), can be every bit as much fun, and even more so regarding the "sailing" part. The outfitting and loading requirements of the boat in one mode, are the "opposite" of what works best in the other mode. We adapt to her current use...

I just wish we had beautiful clear water diving here as well, but we DO have literally thousands of nice private anchorages in which to enjoy nature.

You are very fortunate indeed...
M.

[sea dragon]

The sailing in New Zealand is great!
The seafood is abundant and easy to catch and gather on shore.
the water is nice and warm on the north island.
The beer and pubs are first rate.
As a rule ,I found the
kiwis to be uncomplicated,good friendly people,and proud of thier beautiful country.
New zealand was my favorite south pacific island that I visited.
I would love to go back some day.
New Caledonia and Fiji weren't too shabby either.

[Jimske]

I guess all can agree that there is no perfect option or one size fits all for every trimaran (this is a trimaran thread). My Searunner 31 sports a sled mount port side which I hate (for reasons already mentioned). I also hate the idea of a small diesel in my boat. But for me not having any aux power is even worse.

We don't have to be in some far off place to have need of a motor. I don't see myself coming around Manhattan Island thru Hell's Gate without power or getting out of Nantucket Harbor sometimes for that matter. Forget about anchoring in Block at night by myself without a motor! Makes me too nervous.

We are going to choose what, if any, aux power we need dependent upon how, where and what we are doing with the boat. Each of us must decide that for ourselves.

My 31 is up for sale but I still think about electric propulsion. Why can't I keep the OB (9.9 Yam), install an electric drive and use the OB for back up AND charging the battery bank? The thing about the 31er is that it is light and it is a rather simple install there being ample space below the stern double. For my purposes that would be a good solution if feasible.

I will move that same question over to the Engine Propulsion threads and see what comes of it.

Thanks, Jim

[Mark Johnson]

BETTER MOUSETRAP?
There was a very compact "WolfPack Jet drive" tried on small tris, for a while, (about 35 years back), that lacked enough thrust.

Many folks used the OMC saildrive unit in Searunners, (which was an inboard engine version of an OB motor), with a saildrive's foot rubber mounted through the hull. It worked, but created drag, and they corroded pretty badly.

There IS the possibility of using electric OB motors now, (on the sled), but inboard OR outboard versions... they are very expensive, and the batteries make the installation weigh too much, unless you ALSO have a power generator backup, to run the thing. COMPLICATED!

As it stands, Jim's sled version of an OB motor, with a 9.9 saildrive, still seems to be the best "compromise" for this design, as imperfect as it is. Unless you plan on world cruising, It's what I would use...
M.

[Jimske]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

BETTER MOUSETRAP?

Problem with mousetrap analogies are simply that we are not talking mousetraps. There is a reason why mousetraps haven't changed much over the centuries yet methods of propulsion have. . . and will!

Other points well taken.

Thanks, Jim

http://www.propulsionmarine.com/medi...-electric-boat

[Mark Johnson]

True Jim,
IF spending more money and suffering through the "initial complication" is not a deal breaker for you, and you REALLY want the inboard engines "superior options", then installing a small diesel, with a slightly raised floor and engine box, (Like we have on Delphys), would do the trick nicely. It is all doable! I could help you with it if you'd like.

This is all tried and true technology, but the space for it all on the 31 is quite a bit smaller than on the larger boats. That was the ONLY reason I didn't suggest it as the #1 option previously. I would definitely call an inboard diesel the best option, IF you want it bad enough to pay the price... Everything has one.

HYPOTHETICALLY:
IF you don't want to loose any floor space, (which the above requires), and like new ideas better, you could have hydraulic drive and locate the pump's engine where it fits best, (And hope it never leaks).

OR:
You could also have inboard electric drive, which would fit under the floor just fine. This could be run just for getting you to and from the dock, using just a couple of batteries. These batteries, just like engines, should be located low and amidships, where the weight belongs. The dockside charger would fix you up energy wise, for this limited use. If however, long distance use was the plan, then a remotely located small diesel generator, would make her into a true hybrid! The entire packages for this kind of drive are already out there, and even have the option of charging the batteries back when under sail, due to the prop now being driven by the water flow. These hybrid systems really were meant for larger boats, however. Do you here CA CHING? It is EXPENSIVE stuff, but along with some solar panel assist, would be a load of fun.

From a purely practical point of view, IF the sled/OB motor's bummers just "don't cut it" for you, I'd look for a small (= short/low) diesel, of about 12 to 15 HP, and rig it up just like mine, except skip the CV joint, due to space constraints. (I prefer Yanmar or Beta)

A diesel engine's HP is different from a gasoline engine's HP you know. They have more torque, and are are geared way down, with larger props going slow. Our Yanmar 2-GM-20F, is actually only 18 HP @ 3,600 RPM, and at my normal 2,850 RPMs, it's only putting out 14-15 HP or so. It isn't great, but enough... This is @ 1/2 gal/hr.

"Fresh water cooled" versions makes it a larger engine on top, but IF it will still fit, it will easily double the life of the engine, and improve reliability. IF it wont fit, however, the seawater cooled engine will STILL last twice as long as an OB motor, just not 4X as long, like freshwater cooled diesels do.

If you do the work yourself, the engine, shaft, folding prop, etc, might be in the $5,000 range or even less. If you figure in what you save on fuel over 20 years, and the replacement OB motors that you no longer have to buy, it comes out far cheaper than the OB on a sled. (That is IF you use either set up a LOT, and figure the comparison over 10 or 20 years).

Regarding weight:
IF you carry the same, say... 48 hours of fuel, on either version, then the proper inboard diesel engine installation is the same or even lighter weight, VS an OB saildrive AND the sled with its hardware. It is also weight down low & amidships, where it reduces inertia, and helps keep a low COG, VS raises it.

CAVEAT:
The required engine box in the floor, under the companionway ladder, is a small issue for us. (not sure on the 31)... It forms the compainionway's bottom step, and standing on it makes it easier to reach the far back galley shelves. We have only lost standing headroom, in a spot where we never would just stand anyway.
A down turned SS exhaust version of the engine, VS the Cast Iron "up and over loop" design, does allow for a much smaller engine box. (Yanmar comes both ways)

If you want it bad enough, I'd say: "go for it". Mariam and I simply could not do the things WE like to do, or go the places WE like to go, without all of the inboard's motoring and safety advantages. For others, that is just not the case. It's a personal call.
M.

P.S. You can see from the compainionway ladder cutouts, in the engine box top's Treadmaster, that most of the box is in the space that would've been occupied by the ladder anyway. We lost only about 1.5 sq/ft of "standing space" just in the middle of the floor, (which now serves as an extra seat), and both aft of the box, and on each side, we still have full standing headroom for work at the galley counters. How this all compares to the SR 31, I don't know, but with the 31's smaller space, and a much smaller engine to fit there, it could be very similar. I made full sized mockups before engine purchase, so I'd know. Yanmar has ALL of their specs on line.

I did, btw, raise the entire engine compartment floor by 4" first, and that reduced headroom to just 6'. With my being 5' 7" tall, that was no biggie, but for tall guys...

[rossad]

Thanks for the thumbs up about new zealand. I do find americans very hospitable even more so than new zealanders.. thats the ones that come visit us ... not sure about the ones back in states...
What a great thread. If you dont have ding dong how could anyone ever learn something.
No i dont want to challenge Cavalier MK2 to that race i would surely loose and whats more would hate to wear a pink dress.... but enjoy and send in some good pic's for us guys to pick on.
It is summer here right now and hot perfect sailing weather. i run a sea kayaking business that keeps me busy right now. I shall head out to Barrier in a week or two when the crowds lesson.
Lucky us we found ourselves a Searunner.
By the way the more times the word Searunner used in these threads gives a better rating for Searunner search engines and helps the brand... now thats a new word.....

[Kettlewell]

Not a Searunner owner, but love 'em, and own I think just about everything Jim Brown and John Marples have ever written. I did own a 32-foot plywood French cat for many years that was a cat equivalent of a Searunner in many ways, and it was powered by a 9.9 HP Yammy outboard. One thing we noticed is that she would keep ghosting in almost no wind long after any of our boats that have dragged props around. We were stuck one time three days from Bermuda in a windless high with a massive gale coming along with a bunch of boats coming up from the Caribbean. The gale was so nasty that several boats used up all their diesel trying to get in before the storm, and we were down to next to none in the gasoline department, but our boat would just keep inching forward despite the fact that smoke went straight up. I really couldn't understand what kept us going, but in three days we made something like 100 miles and got in just before the storm while a bunch of boats with inboard diesels got caught out and a few suffered serious damage, injuries, rollovers, etc. The total lack of drag with an outboard is an offshore advantage at times.

[rossad]

How interesting Kettlewell and it certainly can be the case
The equation can change the other way and it certainly did for me sailing back to New Zealand without a motor. The next front coming through at speed and if i had a motor i would have motored back the 2 days before i got seriously hit. Massive waves on the shelf of new zealand 50 60 knots of wind and a terrifying experience, if only i had a diesel and plenty of fuel i wouldnt have put my darling wife through hell.

[Kettlewell]

if i had a motor i would have motored back the 2 days before i got seriously hit. Massive waves on the shelf of new zealand 50 60 knots of wind and a terrifying experience, if only i had a diesel and plenty of fuel i wouldnt have put my darling wife through hell.

Yep, I know the other side of the equation too. My current motorsailor is the first boat I've ever had (in 33 years of ownership) that had a powerful and reliable engine that could push her into very high wind and waves, and I have grown to appreciate that too! One thing I have found is how helpful a powerful diesel can be when hauling up the anchor in high winds. Just put her into gear and have the engine take a lot of strain off the windlass and/or the crew. As always, pluses and minuses.

[Jimske]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

OR:

You could also have inboard electric drive, which would fit under the floor just fine. This could be run just for getting you to and from the dock, using just a couple of batteries. These batteries, just like engines, should be located low and amidships, where the weight belongs. The dockside charger would fix you up energy wise, for this limited use. If however, long distance use was the plan, then a remotely located small diesel generator, would make her into a true hybrid! The entire packages for this kind of drive are already out there, and even have the option of charging the batteries back when under sail, due to the prop now being driven by the water flow. These hybrid systems really were meant for larger boats, however. Do you here CA CHING? It is EXPENSIVE stuff, but along with some solar panel assist, would be a load of fun.

Now you're talking my language! What's money got to do with love? Hahahaha.

Even though I personally hate the OB doesn't mean the sled is a bad idea. Actually, a pretty good concept - it works - small water, calm conditions or the right tack just fine.

I'm never at a dock so that part is out. But . . . having just 4- 6 hours of electric motoring would be a great improvement in certain situations. A small diesel generator would be a good start for increased motor time until other add ons (lithium batteries?) could be acquired. I still have the OB. Can it help charge batteries? I dunno.

Weight? I sail pretty light as it is. I am sure I have room for at least 300 Lbs midship maybe more. That is only two passengers which are rarely aboard while sailing. I don't carry a lot of water or fuel so . . .

Thanks, Jim

[Kettlewell]

It seems like a diesel-electric set up might be a good way to go. Electric drive with a diesel generator that can run at optimum speed and efficiency to either run the engine or charge the batteries, or both.