Thoughts: 20+ y/o Privilege vs. new-ish FP/Leopard/Lagoon?

[Tom and Maje]

We have a 2005 Leopard 40 and are very happy with her. She’s comfortable and sails well. If want a larger boat an older model Leopard 46 Is the same boat but larger and 2 more heads. I’ve been on rallies with the new Leopards. The owners had to run a jackline through your salon on passages to have something to hang on to.

Maje

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Grimgrak

Have you seen anything big and burly like a eleuthera have frame failures vs say a mid 40's sized boat might be more prone to failure?

There are maybe 50 or more "mid 40's sized" cats to every "big and burley" so it would be reasonable to expect proportionately more problems with "mid 40's sized" to crop up on forums.

Fixing the "big and burley" is also way way more expensive than the "mid 40's sized". Just slipping a "big and burley" in a commercial yard on a railway can be 10 tiimes the cost of a travel lift in a boat yard. Exceed BOA of 7.6m and your costs go up big time.

Maintenance costs are not linear, the sails on a 60ft cat are likely to be twice the price of a 40ft cat. Sailing gear, blocks, halyards, winches, shroud costs are exponential.
You have the added problems of pollution insurance above 15m in places like Australia and the need for crew on the "big and burley". Getting a "big and burley" to sail in 10knots of wind is just not going to happen that's why they have 1000l fuel tanks.

Frame failure is a small worry that is rare and applies to all sizes. Best not to be unlucky and get a "big and burley" frame failure.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were such an expert Redneckrob. Yes, I remember the sinking and all the theories, and to me, either they sank it or it had an major hull breach. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt because after nearly a full circumnavigation anything else doesn't make sense. But why do you care so much? It was a simple answer to a question.

If you don't have a lot of experience on the ocean, as the OP indicated, the idea that a whole class of boats is susceptible to suffering from structural failure in heavy seas is pretty frightening and if it was me would have a huge bearing on my decision making. I'd be a little miffed if I later found out it was so rare that there may not even be any documented cases where it was certain this had happened. And feel I'd been steered wrong by folks planting that idea in my impressionable head at the time, no matter how well intentioned they were. So I'm just responding in the way I'd hope more experienced folks would respond if I was the OP and asked the question and was about to base my decision on information that wasn't accurate.

[Grimgrak]

How is your boat as far as squeaking? Perhaps thats where the newer boats shine.

Originally Posted by Palarran

A Lagoon 560 called One World, or something like that, split it's hull and sank. Thats all I recall. My boat is the direct predecessor to an Eleuthera and it could happen, but we have been in some seriously nasty weather and it didn't. So essentially I feel confident (99%).

[Lency]

Well, this sparked a discussion we didn't see coming... Thank you all for sharing your (sometimes emotionally charged) input on this subject!

Originally Posted by chris mac

But, if you absolutely have to expect a return I would keep looking till you find an older model that has been fully upgraded and snatch it up quick! ... I personally would rather spend a little more and be sailing sooner. It could take years for that deal to happen!
Good luck

We're not expecting a return, but reducing the inevitable loss as much as possible would be nice since we're selling EVERYTHING when we move aboard. No reserves (apart from our business which we'll continue to run remotely). We're also looking to set sail coming winter so yes, not looking to spend months luring for that needle in the haystack.

Originally Posted by redneckrob

The issue with a 20 year old boat is that stuff is constantly just wearing out. In addition to the regular stuff breaking that naturally happens on all boats. You're already thinking about big stuff like rigging, sails, and engines. But what about everything else.

If we buy a 10 year old or older boat, it indeed definitely needs to be one with a recent full refit.

Originally Posted by Jeannius

Well I can tell you about that 435 as that is the boat I bought new, lived aboard in the Caribbean and then circumnavigated. The guy I sold to replaced just about everything and the current owners replaced just about everything that wasn't done first time around. That is basically a 2014 or newer boat in an older hull.

I think that boat will still be sailing in another 20 years and will not depreciate as long as the owners keep up with the maintenance.

Nice! We're in touch with her broker. This 435 definitely is a potential candidate as far as we're concerned, although her broker strongly recommends going for a 465 over a 435 EZC (while he doesn't even have a 465 listed and could just sell us this 435). Impressive.

Originally Posted by AZUS

If you are like us, you will spend significant $ making the boat "new to you", in other words, you'll get the sails, electronics, etc. that you want. If the hull, spars, standing rigging, basic electrical, engines and rudders are sound, upgrading an older used boat to your specs can be financially smart. Spend the money on a really, really thorough survey though. Unless you are an expert in building and systems, you want it reviewed by someone who knows.

Tell you what - we're planning on sending even TWO different surveyors to any boat we consider buying. Also, we're not experienced enough to know what we want right off the bat, so while what you say makes sense, that's more something for the longer term. However, we're going to live on the boat fulltime. Not quite looking to live and work in a project.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Have you been on both boats / kinds of boats?

Are you serious discussing Nautitech Open 40 vs. say a Catana 43 ot Privilege 435?

It is like apples and oranges. The boats are vastly different. Also in build.

My personal biased choice would be a Catana up first, closely followed by a Privilege.

We were serious, but after you, the aforementioned broker spoke some sense into us as well so we're stepping away from the Open 40. In face, our shortlist looks similar to yours now.

Originally Posted by singlespeed

Generally, a newer boat will have fewer immediate maintenance issues, all dependent on it's owners mechanical aptitude and it's use. There are stellar examples of older boats that have gone through extensive upgrades, but it may require a really good thorough marine surveyor to find problems, both existing and near term. The biggest question is how mechanically oriented are you both? Cruising and not knowing the basics of boat maintenance leads to a very short cruising dream. Can you do something as simple as bleed the injectors or replace the solenoid on a starter?

One of is quite mechanically oriented (used to work on our own cars), so yes simple tasks like that are fine. The other one of us...not so much LOL.

Originally Posted by Sand crab

One of the biggest complaint with Privileges is that "interesting" electrical system. Lots of info here and elsewhere on this.

Yeah that's definitely something that caught our eye as well. In addition to a surveyor, we would definitely have a separate electrician have a look as well.

Originally Posted by joelhemington

That 435 ezc looks like a good candidate as it's had a lot of expensive upgrades in the last 6 years. The downside, if you're planning on staying in Europe is the VAT issue (you may end up taking a few trips to North Africa to beat the VAT) Aside from the hull, bulkheads, mast and rudders, you'll probably end up replacing everything else over the coarse of ten years (this is the true cost of boat ownership as this money tends to evaporate when it comes time to sell)

All very valid points to consider indeed, thanks for that! Replacing everything over 10 years is expected and fine. We are realistic like that.

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

One thing to consider. Financing and possibly insuring an older boat is more difficult. I'm unaware of anyone lending funds on a 20 year old boat so that means you need a cash buyer unless you're willing to take payments.

Agreed. We're not financing though. We're Dutch, we're allergic to being in debt

Originally Posted by Sail IC

I went through a similar situation, but dismissed the older boats fairly early mainly due to layout. Catamaran design is developing at quite a pace.

In my opinion what breaks are either things that moves or corrode, not the fiberglass or woodwork. Most of the equipment, engine, rigging, electronics, heads, etc, etc, are from the same brand on all boats. The big three also need to build boats that can handle charter abuse without downtime.

Yes layout design evolution is a thing. As for 'breaking' - what about the furniture though? We've seen <10 year old Big 3 boats with laminated plywood and hinges so flimsy that it looked as if it could fall apart by just looking at it.

Originally Posted by ol1970

I would go with the newer boat. Think about it from a resale standpoint, if you are out there 5 years and decide you don't like it or circumstances change finding a buyer for a 30+ year old boat is going to start to get tough. There is always going to be a market for Lagoon/Leopard/FP boats. (Personally I'd suggest avoiding charter boats though)

Yes good point. That 482 has been for sale for almost 2 years now, while it's completely refitted and in amazing shape.

Originally Posted by laurent.b

- I've owned a 1992 Lagoon 47, from 2003 to 2013 : considering the buying and resale price, the needed updates, I won't go for a 20yo boat today (30yo for the Privilege 482).
I'd look at something newer, smaller (just the 2 of you), and certainly faster, budget permitting.

- Because it is so rare (maybe the 1st time I see it) : photos of the Privilege 482 have been made by a pro photographer. I know it because this is my job.
They are so good that I thought at 1st, that they were the original commercial photos from the shipyard. (I still have a small doubt on some of them).
In both cases, the classified is very appealing, the price....well....

- one last opinion :
quality on recent constructions, especially from big productions like Lagoon or Leopard, may be inferior to 20-30yo constructions, I feel it's true (I could clearly see differences between the Lagoon 47 and the Lagoon 470), but I don't know, not enough skills to judge, but they (the recents one) still cross the Atlantic, sail in all sort of (bad conditions) and they are still afloat.
I'll be in you position in a year or so : to push date when comes the time to replace things every 5 minutes, I'll look at the most recent model I'll could find, according to the budget.

Good luck

Laurent

Thanks Laurent, valuable input. The price indeed is way too high but then the seller isn't in any rush to sell either. You're right about the photos but her broker has also sent us his own "candid" photos (a lot of them and very detailed) so we do believe we have a realistic image.

Originally Posted by Tom and Maje

We have a 2005 Leopard 40 and are very happy with her. She’s comfortable and sails well. If want a larger boat an older model Leopard 46 Is the same boat but larger and 2 more heads. I’ve been on rallies with the new Leopards. The owners had to run a jackline through your salon on passages to have something to hang on to.

Maje

LOL what?!?
Also - do you live on that Leopard 40 fulltime? Because then yes I can imagine you can't wait to move to a 46

Originally Posted by redneckrob

If you don't have a lot of experience on the ocean, as the OP indicated, the idea that a whole class of boats is susceptible to suffering from structural failure in heavy seas is pretty frightening and if it was me would have a huge bearing on my decision making. I'd be a little miffed if I later found out it was so rare that there may not even be any documented cases where it was certain this had happened. And feel I'd been steered wrong by folks planting that idea in my impressionable head at the time, no matter how well intentioned they were. So I'm just responding in the way I'd hope more experienced folks would respond if I was the OP and asked the question and was about to base my decision on information that wasn't accurate.

That's considerate, thanks for that. On the other hand, we'll have a life raft and AIS so not easily scared

Originally Posted by Grimgrak

How is your boat as far as squeaking? Perhaps thats where the newer boats shine.

We've heard more stories of old Privilege and Catana owners hearing their new Big3 neighbor squeek than the other way round. And that's while being docked in marinas...


So, as a quick update, based on the input from all you guys here as well as the aforementioned broker, we've set our shortlist in stone:

1: Early 2000s Catana 431 (or 471 if we get lucky with our budget)
2: 2010-ish Leopard 46
3: Early 2000s Privilege 465

Of course, none of these are for sale. At least not owners versions in decent shape located anywhere close to Europe within our budget ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Grimgrak]

What are the big 3? Hopefully not Fountaine Pajot?

Originally Posted by Lency

Well, this sparked a discussion we didn't see coming... Thank you all for sharing your (sometimes emotionally charged) input on this subject!



We're not expecting a return, but reducing the inevitable loss as much as possible would be nice since we're selling EVERYTHING when we move aboard. No reserves (apart from our business which we'll continue to run remotely). We're also looking to set sail coming winter so yes, not looking to spend months luring for that needle in the haystack.




If we buy a 10 year old or older boat, it indeed definitely needs to be one with a recent full refit.




Nice! We're in touch with her broker. This 435 definitely is a potential candidate as far as we're concerned, although her broker strongly recommends going for a 465 over a 435 EZC (while he doesn't even have a 465 listed and could just sell us this 435). Impressive.




Tell you what - we're planning on sending even TWO different surveyors to any boat we consider buying. Also, we're not experienced enough to know what we want right off the bat, so while what you say makes sense, that's more something for the longer term. However, we're going to live on the boat fulltime. Not quite looking to live and work in a project.




We were serious, but after you, the aforementioned broker spoke some sense into us as well so we're stepping away from the Open 40. In face, our shortlist looks similar to yours now.




One of is quite mechanically oriented (used to work on our own cars), so yes simple tasks like that are fine. The other one of us...not so much LOL.




Yeah that's definitely something that caught our eye as well. In addition to a surveyor, we would definitely have a separate electrician have a look as well.




All very valid points to consider indeed, thanks for that! Replacing everything over 10 years is expected and fine. We are realistic like that.




Agreed. We're not financing though. We're Dutch, we're allergic to being in debt




Yes layout design evolution is a thing. As for 'breaking' - what about the furniture though? We've seen <10 year old Big 3 boats with laminated plywood and hinges so flimsy that it looked as if it could fall apart by just looking at it.




Yes good point. That 482 has been for sale for almost 2 years now, while it's completely refitted and in amazing shape.




Thanks Laurent, valuable input. The price indeed is way too high but then the seller isn't in any rush to sell either. You're right about the photos but her broker has also sent us his own "candid" photos (a lot of them and very detailed) so we do believe we have a realistic image.




LOL what?!?
Also - do you live on that Leopard 40 fulltime? Because then yes I can imagine you can't wait to move to a 46




That's considerate, thanks for that. On the other hand, we'll have a life raft and AIS so not easily scared




We've heard more stories of old Privilege and Catana owners hearing their new Big3 neighbor squeek than the other way round. And that's while being docked in marinas...


So, as a quick update, based on the input from all you guys here as well as the aforementioned broker, we've set our shortlist in stone:

1: Early 2000s Catana 431 (or 471 if we get lucky with our budget)
2: 2010-ish Leopard 46
3: Early 2000s Privilege 465

Of course, none of these are for sale. At least not owners versions in decent shape located anywhere close to Europe within our budget ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lency]

Yep. FP, Lagoon and Leopard.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Lency

...although her broker strongly recommends going for a 465 over a 435 EZC (while he doesn't even have a 465 listed and could just sell us this 435). Impressive.

I really don't know why he would say that unless you are planning to load up with about 8 crew and a few ton of spare parts. Really marginal advantage for a crew of two in my opinion. Never once did I think... Wish I had a bigger boat.

[Mook1e]

What is your budget? ~$350,000USD?

[Lency]

Correct, give or take $10K depending on the boat’s age, state and spec.

@Jeannius: he’s adamant about waterline length, and something about both models costing roughly the same these days but the 465 overall being a better boat. However, he did add: ‘unless you find an exceptional 435 EZC’

[Lency]

Also, Jeannius, there may be a difference in advice / preference for people who are living aboard fulltime vs. part-time cruisers? Yes, the benefit ratio becomes less attractive for bigger boats that are used the “regular” way, but we’ve heard more people whose boat is their home and their office say that they wished they’d gone bigger.

With that said, the broker’s passion for waterline length seems to primarily come from a stability / comfort perspective, especially during longer passages.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Lency

Yep. FP, Lagoon and Leopard.

Catana is not built by FP. FP on the other hand also make some very nice boats.

Originally Posted by Lency

Also, Jeannius, there may be a difference in advice / preference for people who are living aboard fulltime vs. part-time cruisers? Yes, the benefit ratio becomes less attractive for bigger boats that are used the “regular” way, but we’ve heard more people whose boat is their home and their office say that they wished they’d gone bigger.

Lived on board 44ft cat for nearly 20 years and never once yearned for a bigger cat. A great number of my friends are long term liveaboards and bigger catamarans never enter the conversation. Monohulls is a different topic.

Originally Posted by Lency

With that said, the broker’s passion for waterline length seems to primarily come from a stability / comfort perspective, especially during longer passages.

None of the boats you looking at are going to be any more or less comfortable than another. 435 vs 465 comfort ratio is undefinable. You might like the broker and I am not suggesting he is in any way dishonest but he is working for a commission so there will be a bias to what "he" likes or perceives as being good.

The question I would ask is have "you" sailed on any of these cats?

Suggest you need to actually go sailing on some and start to make you own mind up about what is good for you. Everyone is different that is why there is more than one brand, all have their pros and cons.

[Lency]

I know Catana is not built by FP. I was just answering Grimgrack’s question who the Big 3 are.

As for the broker - the whole irony about it is that he has a great 365 EZC listed which he could easily sell to us, as we already had shown our interest. Yet, although he of course doesn’t “refuse“ to sell it to us if we really want it, he strongly recommended we wait a bit to see if we can find a nice 465 instead (which he himself doesn’t have listed). He has a fine reputation online and we feel he’s living up to it.

We haven’t sailed on these models yet as there’s not many around and traveling has been so limited. But yes we agree that we can’t imagine any mentionable difference, and living on 44ft cat does indeed seem perfectly fine to us as well. Perhaps we should reconsider adding the 435 EZC to our shortlist. With that being said, we have a significant preference for a Catana or Leopard 46 due to the more open connection of cockpit and saloon, as opposed to Privilege’s little door.

[Mook1e]

Originally Posted by Lency

Correct, give or take $10K depending on the boat’s age, state and spec.

@Jeannius: he’s adamant about waterline length, and something about both models costing roughly the same these days but the 465 overall being a better boat. However, he did add: ‘unless you find an exceptional 435 EZC’

I figured as much. Yes, that price will restrict your choices of 465 owner's versions in good shape. There are a couple in Europe on yachtworld. You may want to check them out.
I liked this one at first glance.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...e-465-3643700/

[laurent.b]

Lency,
even if you seem really focused on Privilège, I would consider the 2002 Catana 471 listed at 295K$, in Florida, on Yachtworld (and else)
Catana over Privilège for their sailing and upwind capabilities.