Thoughts: 20+ y/o Privilege vs. new-ish FP/Leopard/Lagoon?

[Grimgrak]

Tell u what the bahia 46's are looking very attractive to me right now as a newb, I dont mind wrenching but the goal is to be on the water and not on a dry dock.... Again i'm a shooting for a bigger boat to be able to anchor and stay away from mainland months at a time.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Lency

Thanks Sand Crab, so basically are you saying that a well maintained 20 y/o cat is likely (or at least has the potential) to barely depreciate much more over 5~10 years (provided it's kept in the same condition of course)?

(FWIW - while we were primarily looking at ~2016 Leopards and Nautitech Open 40s, the older boats we've discovered and found ourselves appealed to by are this Privilege 482 and this Privilege 435 EZ Cruise)

Cats in general don't depreciate much if well maintained. Take a look at the recent upgrades to get an idea of what this usually entails "the best value in upgrades are those done by the previous owner". That 435 ezc looks like a good candidate as it's had a lot of expensive upgrades in the last 6 years. The downside, if you're planning on staying in Europe is the VAT issue (you may end up taking a few trips to North Africa to beat the VAT) Aside from the hull, bulkheads, mast and rudders, you'll probably end up replacing everything else over the coarse of ten years (this is the true cost of boat ownership as this money tends to evaporate when it comes time to sell)

[Cpt Mark]

Seems like you are very concerned about the value of the boat when you're done. Thie easy answer is it has no value. Boats depreciate. If you think I'm going to get "X" dollars when I sell it "X" years from now your'e living in a pipe dream IMHO. The economy may be so tanked you can't give one away or it may be so red hot and you got lucky and chose the exact boat everyone wants and therefore sell at top dollar. Doubtful. What I see a lot is the owner goes to sell their boat, decides it worth this much money (usually way overpriced) and sits on it trying to sell it for a year or 2 or more until they come to the realization that they need to drop the price. I've seen yacht brokers do this too. Meanwhile, you're paying out slip fees, insurance, maintenance, etc.. every month until you complete a deal. Another way to approach this is to put it on the market at slightly below others asking prices and get some bids and sell it. Part of the cost of the dream.

One thing to consider. Financing and possibly insuring an older boat is more difficult. I'm unaware of anyone lending funds on a 20 year old boat so that means you need a cash buyer unless you're willing to take payments.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Grimgrak

Tell u what the bahia 46's are looking very attractive to me right now as a newb, I dont mind wrenching but the goal is to be on the water and not on a dry dock.... Again i'm a shooting for a bigger boat to be able to anchor and stay away from mainland months at a time.

I haven't looked at the Bahia recently but bang for the buck 10 years ago - they were hard to beat. That or a Lagoon 440.

[Sail IC]

I went through a similar situation, but dismissed the older boats fairly early mainly due to layout. Catamaran design is developing at quite a pace.

In my opinion what breaks are either things that moves or corrode, not the fiberglass or woodwork. Most of the equipment, engine, rigging, electronics, heads, etc, etc, are from the same brand on all boats. The big three also need to build boats that can handle charter abuse without downtime.

I bought a five year old privately owned FP and been cruising it for six years. Hardly anything have broken or needed be repaired. Warmwater heater, batteries, some Lewmar blocks, raymarine chartplotter, sail batten fittings, trampoline. That's about it. Could spend time cruisers rather than working on the boat.

I crossed the Atlantic at the same time as a friend with an Antares 44. They broke the steering and had use the emergency steering the last days. We didn't have any problems. Not trying to bash Antares, but all boats have problems.

[barnakiel]

Charter abuse is not the kind of abuse boats get from extensive offshore sailing. So the way they are built does not reflect well the needs of repeated offshore work.


Otherwise there would be no difference between the two modes and as we all know there is.



Actually not just whatever moves fails (which is tru, as mechanical gear simple gets used up at a point) but also the structure is known to have failed. It only takes a brief google search to find such images. Also at CF we have seen damage in lighter built craft of the kind that is not found in boats built for serious long distance sailing.


I, for one, have SEEN a catamaran of one of the most popular brands where the bridge started cracking on a long crossing. Yes, it was a charter grade product.


b.

[ol1970]

I would go with the newer boat. Think about it from a resale standpoint, if you are out there 5 years and decide you don't like it or circumstances change finding a buyer for a 30+ year old boat is going to start to get tough. There is always going to be a market for Lagoon/Leopard/FP boats. (Personally I'd suggest avoiding charter boats though)

When we pull the trigger we are going to have an open mind about what is purchased right now I have a running spreadsheet of 12 different boats we have sailed or toured and are considering. Monohulls and Catamarans, all the way from all aluminum mono you can take into the ice, to a Outremer 5X. Lots of trade off's and depends on length of your trip, where you are sailing, your skill level, your ability to maintain it yourself, desired performance, ability to haul out/get work done in the places you plan to travel to.

[Grimgrak]

Have you seen anything big and burly like a eleuthera have frame failures vs say a mid 40's sized boat might be more prone to failure?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Actually not just whatever moves fails (which is tru, as mechanical gear simple gets used up at a point) but also the structure is known to have failed. It only takes a brief google search to find such images. Also at CF we have seen damage in lighter built craft of the kind that is not found in boats built for serious long distance sailing.


I, for one, have SEEN a catamaran of one of the most popular brands where the bridge started cracking on a long crossing. Yes, it was a charter grade product.


b.

Please just stop with this rubbish. Production cats do millions of miles a year cruising and structural failure is so exceedingly rare that I'd challenge you to list all those instances "at CF we have seen"?

Also love to see a picture of the "bridge" of that "most popular brand" catamaran that allegedly cracked. Any reason you wouldn't name the brand? Care to explain where the "bridge" was on that catamaran? I've spent a lot of time on the bridge of Coast Guard cutters, it's where the helm and throttles are. That area on my catamaran sits above a stateroom, so it's baffling to me how it could crack due to a crossing. In short, I'm calling BS on you for being evasive and the fact that you clearly know so little about catamarans you don't even know the correct terminology for the various parts of the boat therefore your expertise in the matter is....suspect.

The OP asked a legitimate question and there are a lot of legitimate reasons to go with a higher end cat. Made up concerns about structural failure of production cats isn't one of them, full stop.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Grimgrak

Have you seen anything big and burly like a eleuthera have frame failures vs say a mid 40's sized boat might be more prone to failure?

A Lagoon 560 called One World, or something like that, split it's hull and sank. Thats all I recall. My boat is the direct predecessor to an Eleuthera and it could happen, but we have been in some seriously nasty weather and it didn't. So essentially I feel confident (99%).

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Palarran

A Lagoon 560 called One World, or something like that, split it's hull and sank. Thats all I recall. My boat is the direct predecessor to an Eleuthera and it could happen, but we have been in some seriously nasty weather and it didn't. So essentially I feel confident (99%).

The One World sunk due to a leak that the crew couldn't locate. The captain of that vessel posted his experience on sailing anarchy, not sure if they'll let us link to that from here but if you search for "Wes Garner" and "One World" you'll find his posts. He specifically stated that "As for the cause the water intrusion, it remains undetermined." It's pure conjecture that it was caused by any structural failure, let alone that it "split it's hull and sank".

[laurent.b]

Hi Lency,

a few thoughts as they come :

- I've owned a 1992 Lagoon 47, from 2003 to 2013 : considering the buying and resale price, the needed updates, I won't go for a 20yo boat today (30yo for the Privilege 482).
I'd look at something newer, smaller (just the 2 of you), and certainly faster, budget permitting.

- Because it is so rare (maybe the 1st time I see it) : photos of the Privilege 482 have been made by a pro photographer. I know it because this is my job.
They are so good that I thought at 1st, that they were the original commercial photos from the shipyard. (I still have a small doubt on some of them).
In both cases, the classified is very appealing, the price....well....

- one last opinion :
quality on recent constructions, especially from big productions like Lagoon or Leopard, may be inferior to 20-30yo constructions, I feel it's true (I could clearly see differences between the Lagoon 47 and the Lagoon 470), but I don't know, not enough skills to judge, but they (the recents one) still cross the Atlantic, sail in all sort of (bad conditions) and they are still afloat.
I'll be in you position in a year or so : to push date when comes the time to replace things every 5 minutes, I'll look at the most recent model I'll could find, according to the budget.

Good luck

Laurent

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

The One World sunk due to a leak that the crew couldn't locate. The captain of that vessel posted his experience on sailing anarchy, not sure if they'll let us link to that from here but if you search for "Wes Garner" and "One World" you'll find his posts. He specifically stated that "As for the cause the water intrusion, it remains undetermined." It's pure conjecture that it was caused by any structural failure, let alone that it "split it's hull and sank".

My bad, Redneck. I remember reading the story and couldn't help but think that either these guys are completely incompetant in finding a leak or the hull had split. I think they were in some heavy weather so what else it could be, I guess you can guess better than me.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Palarran

My bad, Redneck. I remember reading the story and couldn't help but think that either these guys are completely incompetant in finding a leak or the hull had split. I think they were in some heavy weather so what else it could be, I guess you can guess better than me.

I spent more than 20 years in the Coast Guard and was involved in a few mishap investigations. From which I learned that often the crew doesn't know what really happened and those of us guessing from afar almost always get it wrong. Could have been anything from a through hull or sail drive failure to a log or marine mammal strike to a failed escape hatch. There was even some speculation (which I think was underhanded and don't support in any way) that they were having a hard time selling the boat and that might have made the decision to abandon a well insured boat much easier. Without doing a thorough investigation any guess is as good as another.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I spent more than 20 years in the Coast Guard and was involved in a few mishap investigations. From which I learned that often the crew doesn't know what really happened and those of us guessing from afar almost always get it wrong. Could have been anything from a through hull or sail drive failure to a log or marine mammal strike to a failed escape hatch. There was even some speculation (which I think was underhanded and don't support in any way) that they were having a hard time selling the boat and that might have made the decision to abandon a well insured boat much easier. Without doing a thorough investigation any guess is as good as another.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize you were such an expert Redneckrob. Yes, I remember the sinking and all the theories, and to me, either they sank it or it had an major hull breach. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt because after nearly a full circumnavigation anything else doesn't make sense. But why do you care so much? It was a simple answer to a question.