Saba 50 vs Antares

[Catalysis]

SC,
Thanks for clearing that up, I met the folks that bought Samuri and was surprised to see her advertised again - apparently Cinderall's listing was just using Samuri's photo while they get their own loaded.


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[Heath68]

Well it seems this thread has run its course... I would just like to say thanks for all who put their point across, I have slowly been torn away from both these cats and am, like many others here, looking for the ideal boat still.
I am at the moment looking at three. Each has its own niceties.. The St Francis 50 looks like it could sail well and be very nice to liveaboard, and with the exchange rate as it is, the price is looking very good too. The Knysna 50 has caught my eye but I think its probably a bit too slow for me... and then there is the Discovery 50. I like the large cabin forward and it looks on paper at least as though it would match the St Francis on speed, AND its British! (I'm British) .. so that's got to be a good thing. The only thing against this at the minute is that its pricey.
So, I will continue to look and wait for my ideal... the Balance 526 is out soon and is as fast or faster than a Catana 53 (on paper at least).... so maybe I'll re-think when I've seen her in the flesh.
Thanks once again for your help.


Heath

[owenrms]

Hi Heath - take a look at the new Lagoon 450 Sport top - maybe something that works for you. We are heading to St Francis next week to look at the St Francis 50 and then we go to look at the Knysna 50 again - the latter I think is off the table due to the very low bridgedeck height. The Antares was my number one choice until I realized how slow she was.....very safe, lots of excellent options but too narrow and too slow.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by owenrms

Hi Heath - take a look at the new Lagoon 450 Sport top - maybe something that works for you. We are heading to St Francis next week to look at the St Francis 50 and then we go to look at the Knysna 50 again - the latter I think is off the table due to the very low bridgedeck height. The Antares was my number one choice until I realized how slow she was.....very safe, lots of excellent options but too narrow and too slow.

That's what I love about this forum, lots of eyes out there looking at things to help. I hadn't considered the Lagoon Sport Top but will keep an eye on it, thanks.
Hugh's St Francis II does look promising and the Knysna does look beautiful inside but takes a bit of a knock on the performance. I didn't know about the bridgedeck clearance... 600mm OUCH! That is low.

Have you looked at the Discovery 50? Have you any opinions on it? I am also waiting to see what the Balance 526 is like, if they get the interior looking nice its performance on paper beats the Catanas.

Thanks again
Heath

[BigBeakie]

Heath;

It might be instructive to graph Lwl/Bh (Y axis) vs SA/D (X axis) for the boats in the size range you are interested in. I found this very revealing & helpful when we were trying to decide on a boat.

Lwl/Bh vs SA/D graph shows with objective data how the relationship between hull design (Lwl/Bh) and power to weight metric (SA/D) places the boats in their performance position.

What I like about this graph is that you can draw some expectations about the light air sailing performance. Almost all boats go OK when there is really good wind, but what about when it drops to 10 knots and below? You need high values for Lwl/Bh for light airs.

FYI, it shows the boats that are, to be kind, a bit sluggish but also the boats that are massively powerful at the other end of the extreme.

Whether boats like that are suitable for cruising couples re mainsail handling and the SSpd value (tippiness), I'll leave up to your assesement of risk.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Heath;

It might be instructive to graph Lwl/Bh (Y axis) vs SA/D (X axis) for the boats in the size range you are interested in. I found this very revealing & helpful when we were trying to decide on a boat.

Lwl/Bh vs SA/D graph shows with objective data how the relationship between hull design (Lwl/Bh) and power to weight metric (SA/D) places the boats in their performance position.

What I like about this graph is that you can draw some expectations about the light air sailing performance. Almost all boats go OK when there is really good wind, but what about when it drops to 10 knots and below? You need high values for Lwl/Bh for light airs.

FYI, it shows the boats that are, to be kind, a bit sluggish but also the boats that are massively powerful at the other end of the extreme.

Whether boats like that are suitable for cruising couples re mainsail handling and the SSpd value (tippiness), I'll leave up to your assesement of risk.

Thanks for the above. I tried to do that but (excuse my lack of knowledge) I took BH as meaning the beam (overall) of the boat in question.. (SA = Sail Area and D = Displacement) I do not know many manufacturers who give data in individual hull width. The problem with taking the overall beam is that the Antares 44i comes out with a better ratio than the Catana 47 which I find unlikely. What did I do wrong?

Heath

[BigBeakie]

Heath,

The Bh is the beam of an individual hull at the waterline at the widest part. The values for the various boats are given in Multihull Dynamics, Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - Home
and there is a page of definitions for the various measurement sand sailing performance indicators. The beam overall BOA is the width of the entire boat at the widest point.

And you are right, the Antares is in a different end of the spectrum than the Catana.

While we're at it, the Lw/Bh is not the whole story in terms of hull shape and hydrodynamics. The "slipperyness" of any hull design is also is a function of how well the designer has minimised parasitic drag. This has a few factors including bow shape, surface area, midship hull profile and stern section profile. All of these are NOT indicated by Lwl/Bh specifically, but you can make some reasonable assumptions about a hull with an Lwl/Bh of 8:1 versus one of 12:1 It shows up most dramatically in light air sailing.

You may find some surprises when you plot the scatter graph of the Lwl/Bh vs SA/D

Also consider some of the Displacement figures given by some manufacturers are "possibly" optimistically low, and this can greatly affect the SA/D metric position on the graph. For example there is a 52' boat that purports to have a displacement of 8.7 Light Tonne, which would be remarkable and a minimum of 4 tonne lighter than the average for that length.

[henryv]

I

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[MIRELOS]

The finnish on the Discovery is outstanding, the best of any cat I've seen and most monos, a bit expensive though and I don't like that bulb forward.
The Antares i find to be heavy and outdated but well made, The St. Francis..the company keeps going in and out of financial unrest. Have you looked at the Swiss or the Alibi, both interesting. The French are making good boats except many are aimed at the charter trade......whatever you choose enjoy, it's great on two hulls.

[Hugh Howey]

Originally Posted by MIRELOS

The St. Francis..the company keeps going in and out of financial unrest.

I don't think this is true. Duncan has been building boats since the 80s. I've spent two months in St. Francis Bay, have gotten to know several dozen people in town very well, everyone knows Duncan, and as in small towns, gossip is rife. If there was an ounce of truth to this, I would have heard it from someone.

I can say this with complete confidence, as everyone I meet eventually knows why I'm here, and there are two other builders in town, and I have heard the gossip about all of them. What you hear about Duncan (even from the other boat builders) is: They build a damn fine boat.

The problem with St. Francis Marine is going to be the wait for a boat, I believe. They only build two of these a year, and the factory hums and provides jobs to what I would guess is 30 or so people, and everyone seems happy with the pace and arrangement. But the word is out about the design changes to what was already one of the best cruising catamarans in the world, and now it's a parade of interested buyers. I have a feeling they're going to need to ramp things up in the next year or two to put out 3-4 of these a year.

Duncan is definitely not hurting for money, though. I'm not sure that he even needs to be doing this. It's like a labor of love. He developed half this town and lives in an amazing place on the beach and doesn't spend lavishly. He just seems to really enjoy going into work every day and crafting a boat that's a little better than the last one. (Keep in mind that at the last boat show, he sold two boats, his last spec boat and his current under construction. He has money in the bank and only one unsold boat in the mold.)

[MIRELOS]

I met Duncan at one of the Annapolis shows and I liked him, the info about the financial ordeals of the company came to me after from other sources and may be wrong ( I hope so), just be aware. i heard that about FP also, I check it out and it was not true and so I bought an FP.
Good luck with your choice and enjoy it.

[Hugh Howey]

Originally Posted by MIRELOS

I met Duncan at one of the Annapolis shows and I liked him, the info about the financial ordeals of the company came to me after from other sources and may be wrong ( I hope so), just be aware. i heard that about FP also, I check it out and it was not true and so I bought an FP.
Good luck with your choice and enjoy it.

This must be a common tactic from brokers to scare buyers away from boats they don't deal in, because I've heard this on and off about quite a few boat builders that seem to be doing well. I had one broker try to talk me out of a SF50, and he listed a litany of things that were 100% untrue (deck clearance, type of construction, etc.) I found out later that this broker had the ability to sell SF yachts taken away from him, so he was steering clients toward anything he could sell. Then you have forums like this and a small community of boat owners and buyers, and the rumors spread. I guess the lesson is: Take aspersions against boat builders with a grain of salt.

[MIRELOS]

exactly, always do your homework

[Sand crab]

Here's an Antares just listed. It's a Canadian built one! Only $745,00 for an 8 year boat. How long will it last before it's sold? I bet sooner than later.
2007 PDQ Antares 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Here's an Antares just listed. It's a Canadian built one! Only $745,00 for an 8 year boat. How long will it last before it's sold? I bet sooner than later.
2007 PDQ Antares 44 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Its not the only one... Ona is for sale as well (the one with the blue hulls)... she is very nice looking and a 2012 cat... $899k. http://www.liveantares.com/pdf/OnaLi...a%20for%20Sale