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schoonerdog · 09-06-2008, 06:12

Flipped mono, highly trained crew dead, no chance to deploy onboard liferaft. No one has a bulletproof solution, and inversions are not a catamaran thing. All facts considered, multis will resist inversion far longer than any other type of boat. We really need to get over taking a universal issue and pointing it only at one type of boat.

Last missing Texas A&M sailor found dead - CNN.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by knottybuoyz

Oooops!

BMW Oracle's flip side of the America's Cup - Telegraph

09-06-2008, 07:53

The point is pretty clear to me. Cruising, by definition, is a matter of self reliance. Anything that makes us less reliant on outside resources while at sea, is a positive.
Consideration of sitting out there in a disabled vessel, waiting for help to come, vs, taking a proactive approach to right the vessel, and make my way to help, would lead me to choose the latter. May not be a practical way to do this, but it is certainly reasonable to consider it.
I would also add that when I was sailing mono's, I seriously considered the installation of airbags inside the hull to make it "self recoverable from sinking". Practical? Probably not, but I can not imagine anyone anyone not considering some method to make the boat more self reliant.

cptnandy · 09-06-2008, 08:15

actally there is a comercially availble system to inflate air bags inside a monohull to keep it from sinking. I cannot remember who it is that makes it though---

Personally I think that fire is a far greater danger on a boat than either sinking (mono) or flipping (multi) and it is for that reason that I will not put to sea with out a liferaft in any kind of vessel. Not that I have ever had a fire on board myself, but I have seen a couple boats burn... not good

BigCat · 09-06-2008, 09:59

The self-righting thing wasn't my idea-I was just pitching in on someone else's project. Waiting for help to right your boat is O.K. if you are a coastal cruiser near shore, like the Paragon, as you can probably get help from a boat (vs. a ship,) but help from a ship isn't going to recover your boat. Ship time just costs too much, so if you are rescued by a ship, your boat is a total loss. Richard Woods wrote about this subsequent to his abandoning his cat off S. America.

I think most people are in favor of carrying an EPIRB, but sometimes they don't work or get washed away, and then rescue may take a very long time indeed.

I think the bigger and heavier your cat is, and the less inclined you are to push the envelope by sailing fast, the less likely you are to capsize. BigCat 65 has 500% more righting moment than a Conser 47, but only a bit more than twice the sail area, with masts about the same length, so I'd say its capsize is a lot less likely. This is one reason why I favor what I call a 'little big boat,' meaning not much of a deck house, and not very wide hulls without shelves. For interior space, you just make it bigger, and thus wider and more stable.

Someone mentioned how high a catamaran floats-in my project, I am filling the bridge deck with floatation foam-a lot of it, more than the designed displacement would require if it weren't a cored boat.

Regarding fire-yes, that is a big concern of mine. I am using fire retardant resin in my project, and all the fire gear required on a U.S. 149 passenger boat-which is a lot of fire gear.

Aussiesuede · 09-06-2008, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by knottybuoyz

Oooops!

BMW Oracle's flip side of the America's Cup - Telegraph

Racing boats being sailed hard are much more likely to go over than cruisers obviously. Heck, not even all racing mono's are self righting. Case and point:

http://render1.snapfish.com/render2/.../of=50,590,396

**sandy daugherty** · 09-06-2008, 11:01

I don't have any definative numbers, but I believe that any plans to self right a cruising catamaran or trimaran must not plan on an intact rig. It may have just stuck in my mind but I have a ffeling that at least half of the inversions I have looked at lost their rigs, and several had to be cut away to prevent further damage to the hulls.

One other point. If the weather has been bad enough to flip a cruiser, what kind of shape do you expect the crew to be in, and are you thinking you'll now be floating in calm water? just crawling up on an inverted bridge deck may completely exhaust all your resources.

Talbot · 09-06-2008, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

I believe that any plans to self right a cruising catamaran or trimaran must not plan on an intact rig. It may have just stuck in my mind but I have a ffeling that at least half of the inversions I have looked at lost their rigs, and several had to be cut away to prevent further damage to the hulls.

That has always been my concern with these "pull an air bag up your mast " theories.

Personally, I would rather spend the time and money having a boat that is less likely to do this, and has the equipment to survive in bad weather. I distrust the concept of the really light catamaran for short handed ocean use, and prefer the concept of the more robust but slower cat.

09-06-2008, 11:23

This is true, but you also have to remember that the more you increase your options, the more you increase the probability that you will survive, and that your boat will be recoverable. I agree that race boats are a different animal. I also agree that, as mentioned before on this board, the probability of a cruising multi capsizing is likely less than the probability of a mono sinking. I also agree that if a cruising multi turtles, it is likely do to an avoidable action by the crew. So, first and foremost, focus should be on avoiding the situation. Second should be focus on how to deal with it in the case that it happens. Both should be considered, and solutions should be sought. Or, we could just stay home where it is safe, and die of old age.

SelkirkWind · 09-06-2008, 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor

I must admit to also wondering what the point is here, making a multi self recoverable from capsize is like making a mono self recoverable from sinking.

Dang, I could not have said that better!

Therapy · 09-06-2008, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor

I must admit to also wondering what the point is here, making a multi self recoverable from capsize is like making a mono self recoverable from sinking.

The mono would be easier.
A big bag that would fill the inside.
Inflate.
A kit of epoxy and stuff to plug any hole.
Plug.
Done.

OR

Folding inflatable ama's....wait that's a tri.............

BigCat · 14-06-2008, 13:00

This link shows the crew hanging out on a tramp that is above the water with the (racing) tri capsized. the horse's mouth: Hanging Out On A Capsized Triamaran.

Looking at this gave me the idea that you could attach pad eyes between the waterline on the hulls and attach a tramp or tarp as a place to hang out on your upside down cat. This would be necessary as a cruising cat wouldn't float as high as this racing tri, so you'd need to create a higher 'deck'

BigCat · 14-06-2008, 13:13

This 40' daycharter cat capsized in Hawaii, too-

Hawaii Ocean Industry Magazine Archives

To see the boat:

Exclusive Hawaii Sailing Charters, Private Hawaii Sailing Charters

Like the Paragon, it is a very light, go-fast cat, though I don't have any design statistics for it.

44'cruisingcat · 14-06-2008, 13:41

A lot of this discussion seems to have been about righting a multi by lifting one hull over the other. From what I've seen, it isn't done this way. Certainly not for boats with engines. Bow over stern, using the weight of the engines to helpsink the stern seems to be the "norm" (It doesn't happen often enough to be considered "normal" IMHO)