Oceanvolt Servoprop regen tested by UMA

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

...It would be interesting to see what the engine hours and fuel consumption is for a typical full time cruiser...

I don't know if I am typical but here is an answer to your query.

In the last 17 years for which I have complete records

• We have used 1400 gallons of diesel, which is 82 gallons per year, or 8.66 gallons per month.
• We have put 3368 hours on the engine, at avg of .42 gallons per hour
• We traveled about 20,000 nautical miles however most of that was sailing
• The average miles per gallon was about 14.25
• Most of our engine hours were for charging the house batteries.

This was the second half of a circumnavigation. Based on the consistency of the 218 months covered I'd have to say that the first half, for which we have no records, the usage would be about the same. So 2800 gallons over 25 years and around 50,000 miles of cruising, 35 countries, full time liveaboard.

Our boat sails well, we like sailing, we do a lot of it.

Your mileage may vary.

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I know people who ran aground because they had an engine... oh wait no it's because they navigated into shallow water which had nothing to do with having an engine or not.

You continue to post foolish remarks, but consider this: your engine is harming me. So any justification you have for using it will not be considered valid. It doesn't matter how convenient it is for you: it does nothing but cause pollution for me. It sure also makes cruising less legitimate, and justifies more and more restrictions for the future if most of the people doing it are extremely privileged people who have the means to cause no pollution quite easily but instead are selfish excessive polluters who are spoiling their own cruising grounds for all future generations in a world currently on the brink of complete chaos.

If you must use diesel engine, just use vegetable oil: you can sure afford it, it's cheap, and you can buy it anywhere. Even if not good enough, electric propulsion with huge lithium battery banks isn't good either, but at least these people are trying something and it's better than nothing.

If you use fossil diesel you are trying nothing and using no imagination: lazy and part of the biggest problem of humanity: the enemy of good and the root and seed of the demise of a future, a robbery of the youth of tomorrow and an oppressive perverse hegemony to be recorded and remembered as pillagers who cause devastation and disgrace.

I wouldn't say it as drastically you did, but it's the right aproach. Let the early aproachers do it and learn.

Cheers
Dirk

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by bergius

The fact of high latitude sailing is that there simply isn’t enough sunlight outside of summer months for pretty much anything.

We’re seeing a drastic drop in solar production here now that it is September. And Uma is some 19° more north than we are (Berlin vs. Tromsø).

In there previous vlog they mentioned Norway's National Day which is 17 May, so the regen vlog perhaps end of May 21.

However, I can understand their concern about the availability of shore power in Svalbard. Your point about heating is also very valid. They don't have diesel on board and despite insulating the boat several years ago plus installing a small wood stove, keeping warm will be a concern. Notice the snow still on the ground behind them. So a Honda could be really useful for the next leg. They also talked about visiting Greenland a while back. Perhaps that's their planned route home.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

I wouldn't say it as drastically you did, but it's the right aproach. Let the early aproachers do it and learn.

Cheers
Dirk

Indeed, is the best option to replace a diesel engine? or could a pair of electric outboards lifted clear of the water when not in use be another option. I think they already have regen, but I have forgotten the make.

Pete

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Thanks for the data, more convincing evidence of your behavior.



Average boat speed 6.7 knots on a boat capable of 19 knots is definitely no record.



wind is now "37 knots" instead of 45.



My average speed for 9 days from vavau 5.5 knots

Max speed for 24 hours 144 miles: 6 knots (27 ft monohull hull speed limited)

I was also using spinnaker at times, and sailed in and out of minerva reef

Was not becalmed but sailing 2 knots is not becalmed so you were not either. There is technically no such thing as "zero" wind.

Max wind speed sustained 30 knots (gusts a bit higher)

Fuel used: none



38 liters seems an absurdly large for only a few days. Perfect example of why diesel power like this should be limited to renewable fuels which you have the option (38 liters of vegetable oil is not very expensive) of but choose to spend the money on a larger boat than needed instead. People abuse this and cause more emissions than the vast majority of people on the world for purely leisure/recreational purposes. Had you used the engine few minutes for on and off the dock the total would be <1 liter. Had you produced the coconut oil consumed yourself you should mention that.



Now we know the river whanagarei... This is not even a difficult one such as greymouth or some of the others. I tacked up and down this river also know someone with 45ft boat who tacked it a few times against strong contrary winds as well so it's fine to do in large cruising boats as well. So perfectly fine to navigate without engine there and just a waste of fuel to use engine anywhere on that river until you are past the bridge and even then most of the time you can sail all the way.



I sailed also around the north island and experienced much higher winds especially on wairapa near castle point. At times beating in 40 knots (with spray) and sailing downwind in such lows you avoided with 50+ knots. So you could make it without engine, and if needed, it's no problem to hove to for a day or two, certainly not worth the cost to humanity to burn a bunch of fuel when there are so many options available to avoid it.



This is more convincing evidence for why a complete ban against diesel fuel at docks is in order and strongly needed. In the transition period over the next 10 years we can offer you bio-diesel with the associated trade off such as 2-3x the price (still super cheap, 38 liters would only cost about $200 nzd) but with an ultimate complete phase-out in 10-15 years (fuel docks will offer only charge ports at this point) giving you ample time to convert to electric propulsion. This is really a bare minimal to show respect with no really disadvantage or loss of function, otherwise to use fossil diesel you are disrespecting all of the people (numbering in billions) in the world who oppose for your privileged (cruising) lifestyle and disregarding their fate as well as your own.. in the meantime.. just use vegetable oil you can buy it at pak-n-save, and your own exhaust will cause you less harm as a direct benefit.

Sean, I admire your advocacy and also your ability to challenge dogma.

I completely agree that no one absolutely needs an engine.

However, absolutism never really changes peoples opinions. Rather, a pragmatic approach usually leads to much greater change.
A far more high-yield group to attack is large power yachts which use exponentially more fuel than the auxiliary diesels in many of our sailboats.
My opinion is that diesel needs to be taxed or priced much higher and that will make everyone think harder about consumption, proportionate to their usage.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

Adelie - do you mismatch something? Regen is related to the drag thru water. Not SOG.

Or didn't I got you correctly?

Cheers
Dirk

When the regen is on drag should be higher and speed thru the water should be lower.
My point was two fold:
Speed going up when they turned on the regen could be function of increase wind just as they turned it on and/or entering a tail current just as they turned it on.
Since they are measuring speed using GPS they don't know whether speed thru the water changed. They would need a knotmeter to figure that out. If they were careful to do testing at slack tide or in calm water areas they would eliminate the complication of currents.

[Nightsky]

Originally Posted by Jamme

Apparently UMA just bought a Honda EU22 generator to reach Svalbard:

I'm pretty sure that I have seen everyone of UMA's videos, having subscribed to them for a number of years now. As regards their latest video, my take on it was that they purchased the Honda generator NOT to reach Svalbard, but since they believe there is only one marina there, where they could plug in to shore power, they would be self-sufficient instead, in the event that there wasn't sufficient solar power generation to support their desire to explore while there, that they would bring their own shorepower. My take on this whole thread is that they are not relying on OV regen to keep the batteries topped up, but to cover house loads and autopilot load during night runs and daytime runs when overcast. I have seen in one of their videos, where they made about 40 tacks in a narrow fjiord knowing that that is their primary means of propulsion, they don't rely on the electric motor to go from one location to another, they sail or they wait for wind. The Honda generator is just a small bit of insurance while they push the boundaries of where a non-ICE sailboat can go. Not really a super accomplishment, since all sailboats started out that way.

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

(And what heaters will they have? That is an interesting question, as well. For now, Oceanvolt recommends using diesel for heating.)

For heating I'd think about evacuated heat tubes. Maybe made for RVs? I know it's done by a polish company. Took some pictures with my phone and talked to the owner. He's pretty satisfied with his solution. However, many things has to be added and not to forget a double heat exchanger in the reservoir if there is a tiny, watercooled genset as a backup system (a double heat exchanger is not very common). Hosing, pumping, special cooling fluid maybe, insulation, expansion tank, electric curcuit, temerature measuring, risk analysis and safety shut off, and so on and so on. But doable.

Or just hoist a black shower bag. Easy, cheap and functional. Maybe too simple...

O.k., the last sentence was a bit sarchastic. I know what you mean and would follow that above described approach if I want to avoid to burn fuel for just having a hot water shower. I would choose the bag only if the heat tube system AND the genset fails.

Just my 5cts
Cheers
Dirk

[Jim Cate]

Umm... I hate to seem ignorant but WTF is an "evacuated heat tube"? And a "double heat exchanger"?

Sound like something from the Hitchhikers Guide... but you seem to imply that they are (collectively??) a heat source. Where does the energy come from?

Baffles me.

Ann and I survived for some years in the tropics using a shower solar heater, showering in the cockpit. That technique fails badly in cooler climes, both from the heating of the water aspect and flailing about nekkid in the cockpit when the ambient temp is near freezing.

IMO our propane fired flash heater is a better solution.

Jim



Jim

[Dirk01]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Dirk1, No, I do not think that makes sense for us. We are a simple boat. Our philosophy is that we don't "add" things to solve problems. More likely we are looking to take things off, not add them. We want to keep the boat light, fast and as simple as possible without diminishing its livability and comfort. We have achieved that without lithium, electric drive, or regen.

So, removing an ICE, installing electric drive, installing lithium batteries and all the falderal to support them, then adding back an ICE as a generator makes no sense to me. Cost and complexity, and to what advantage? I have no problem with my diesel engine, not smells, smoke, whatever. It gives excellent utility. It charges my batteries, it gets me where I need to be if I can't sail. It is reliable. I've had it for 28 years.

And one thing I have learned from this thread: The management of Lithium, charging, alternator protection, safety, dc to dc, buffer FLA, multiple nppt, etc etc isn't all sorted out yet. Look at the number of opinions on this thread. Add to that the fact that you'd have about 3 times as many little electronic devices as before and eventually some are going to fail, which brings up the concern, how do you diagnose problems with a more complex system? Or fix it in Papua New Guinea?

So I am Lithium/ED/regen hesitant.

Wingssail, yes, there's no point in disposing of a functioning system. It only make sense if your building from scratch or need to do a major refit.

My answer or question was more or less academic. It's about the question of what would fit 80% of the sailors for the future (2030/2040/2050). You'll never ever catch them all. And that's o.k. even. I love seeing historic cars and typical US muscle cars, even if I never buy one. We have a BEV and a 20 year old BMW Cabrio (and we're not going to throw it away because it's old, it drinks a lot of gasoline and it burns a lot of oil).

It is true that the newer systems are no longer repairable with a screwdriver and a hammer. Bits and bytes determine the function.
But those who grew up with the new tools can no longer handle a hammer. For him or her (not for everyone!) it is easier to have a few electronic components on board and to program something properly.
Believe it or not, but there are car diagnostic systems in repair shops all over the world now. Why shouldn't this also apply to other things?
Yes, maybe not today, but certainly tomorrow ...

We're living in a rapidly changing time...

Cheers
Dirk

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Umm... I hate to seem ignorant but WTF is an "evacuated heat tube"? And a "double heat exchanger"?

I think a good example of an evacuated heat tube might be a solar thermal collector with a clear tube that holds a heat conducting element in a vaccum.

The heating element collects heat from the sun and is insulated from the environmental temperature by the vacuum.

The heating element has tiny heat exchanges at either end to that are in contact with a medium that circulates around the heat where wanted.


A double heat exchange could transfer heat between 2 different heat circuits.

A typical heat exchange might have a single input and output. A double heat y doubles that.


Yes, modern real world seems to be inspired by hitchhiker guide. I also feel the tower babel fits these times as well.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Sound like something from the Hitchhikers Guide... but you seem to imply that they are (collectively??) a heat source. Where does the energy come from?

Baffles me.

Ann and I survived for some years in the tropics using a shower solar heater, showering in the cockpit. That technique fails badly in cooler climes, both from the heating of the water aspect and flailing about nekkid in the cockpit when the ambient temp is near freezing.

IMO our propane fired flash heater is a better solution.

Jim



Jim

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

Or just hoist a black shower bag. Easy, cheap and functional. Maybe too simple...

O.k., the last sentence was a bit sarcastic.Dirk

Dirk, that would make ice for me

Jim, something like this:

https://www.alternative-energy-tutor...collector.html

Seem to remember doing a calculation and I would need 2sqM just to heat the hot water, more to heat the boat. Oh and not light either.

Pete

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dirk01

For heating I'd think about evacuated heat tubes. Maybe made for RVs? I know it's done by a polish company. Took some pictures with my phone and talked to the owner. He's pretty satisfied with his solution. However, many things has to be added and not to forget a double heat exchanger in the reservoir if there is a tiny, watercooled genset as a backup system (a double heat exchanger is not very common). Hosing, pumping, special cooling fluid maybe, insulation, expansion tank, electric curcuit, temerature measuring, risk analysis and safety shut off, and so on and so on. But doable.

Or just hoist a black shower bag. Easy, cheap and functional. Maybe too simple...

O.k., the last sentence was a bit sarchastic. I know what you mean and would follow that above described approach if I want to avoid to burn fuel for just having a hot water shower. I would choose the bag only if the heat tube system AND the genset fails.

Just my 5cts
Cheers
Dirk

Lovely!

I like warm water, but I'm more concerned with cabin heating! I can do without having a shower, but I don't want to sleep in a boat when it's freezing inside In early spring, the sea over here can be just a few degrees above freezing and the air temperature drop well below it in the nights.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Umm... I hate to seem ignorant but WTF is an "evacuated heat tube"? And a "double heat exchanger"?

Sound like something from the Hitchhikers Guide... but you seem to imply that they are (collectively??) a heat source. Where does the energy come from?

….

Here are examples of evacuated heat tubes:

https://www.amazon.com/Duda-Solar-Co...r+tubes&sr=8-5

https://gosun.co/collections/solar-ovens

I have a GoSun but haven’t played around with it yet.


I’m not sure about the Double heat exchanger.
May mean double pipe heat exchanger which is one of the more thermally efficient arrangements for heat exchangers.

[s/v Jedi]

Hot water has been used for cabin heating even longer than cold water for cabin cooling.