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Old 29-11-2016, 14:10   #481
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
It depended what other prop was being compared to the Servoprop, doesn't it? As I understand it, it is 3 times the power of the next best prop.
Well, we'll find out what prop they compared against and what is the "next best prop" when you post that test data, won't we.
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Old 29-11-2016, 14:20   #482
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
It sounds awesome. Not just perpetual motion, but perpetual acceleration! And all due the those legendary electric superhorses.
I'm surprised they don't just fit a pair of electric drive into a donut filled with water - one to generate water movement, another to recapture energy to power the other electric drive. Must be some surplus around to pump back into the grid
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Old 29-11-2016, 14:24   #483
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Rob

I have given up responding to your rantings here. In fact I wish others would stop responding and this thread would cease as it has resorted to a Monty Pythonesque argument.

However, I cannot let this past. Always good to hear your contribution, at least your's are thoughtful.

Fact

There are 100,000 or so diesel equipped yachts out there. You quote 100 installations.Based on one vendor for just one of their products. I do not know the extent of the entire EP installed base, and neither do you. There was a time when there were more horses on the road than cars too. So what? Based on any objective assessment the VAST majority of sailors and manufacturers are not prepare to accept EP now. You have done that market research, have you? I have not seen anything "factual" that would support that proposition. But given that obviously a tiny minority have actually been on an EP boat, what else would you expect? In the case of climate change the VAST majority of people believe in climate change and therefore the equivalence in this instance would be those that dispute EP.I never made a case for numbers, I made a case for confirmation bias. I am the one who is digging into this to find the relevant facts on both sides, are you? Have you called OceanVolt and had a good discussion with them? Have you been on any of their installations? I'm thinking you have an experiential framework of diesel only? Why don't you get yourself invited onto the Schionning 60' with SD15's being launched in January and experience for yourself? And Chris, you are most welcome on our boat anytime after launch.

Fact

The arguments put by so called anti EP proponents are based on logical and clear scientific arguments such as the energy density of diesel as compared to other forms of energy, and clear pragmatic arguments based on significant cruising experience. Now you may regard these arguments as philistine and non-progressive but they are nonetheless solid arguments. Yes, in the case of some such as yourself, I would say this is a very fair statement Climate Change is based on solid scientific grounds (although not as clear as those with diesel vs EP, but regardless most accept those scientific views of the majority. Here again the equivalence of views is with the anti EP people.

Fact

New technology which is the vast minority, by classic Bayesian theory requires especially strong proof. You have provided none of this. OK be specific. Exactly what proof of what specific issue or point are we discussing? That is a sweeping statement that leads nowhere.I have furnished "proof" that EP is vaporware, that EP can't/won't/doesn't work for cruisers. What is it you want "proof" of?

You talk about spin, but your comments remind me of the arguments put forward by Malcolm Roberts of One Nation,making a comparison between myself and Robert's is a cruel blow indeed. I'm devastated in which selective half truths from various scientific sources are patched together to deny climate change. You also seem to take statements from manufacturersCorrection, ONE manufacturer. I would just love to watch you in a room with their technical crew. I would PAY to see that on web sites as statements of fact, this not being scientifically reasonable. If anyone is practicing the art of spin here it is you.Excellent, I'm all for it. Where is the independant body to test this stuff objectively? Nigel Calder I will take as an an independant witness even though his background in diesel expertise outweighs his expertise in EP, but still, he IS trying. I have communicated with Mr. Calder, have you? And what did he say about OceanVolt technology in a published piece???? Hmmm???? Is Calder calling them charlatans and that they are misrepresenting the facts??? Who is YOUR authority who has examined EP and supports your viewpoint? Please refer me to their published analysis.

Nothing will change your view,a demonstratable fact that overturns the viability of a good EP system will change my viewpoint in a heartbeat. But I have yet to see one. And no, energy density and efficiency arguements do NOT sway me, for the resons I have previously, and almost ad nauseum, given. and one supposes that you will eventually build your boat,Yep! It is underway and that the proof will be there for all to see, or not.You bet! I would suggest that when you actually do so, and actually venture to sea in your own boat for the first time your views may change.Your suggestion duly noted. And I suggest that when you get some actual experience in these matters, your view may change too. In the meantime it demeans you to brand the vast majority of sailors and manufacturers as idiots simply because they hold a different view to you.I have only demeaned those that have made silly arguments or those that rely on strawman and ad hominem attacks. If the "vast majority of sailors feel demeaned, that was never my intention. But you do them a disservice by lumping them all together because they happen to have had a diesel engine in the boat they bought. They will be as diverse a group as any market segment.
And FYI, the wind resistance vs thrust study that was done on our boat shows that we can very comfortably motor at 4 knots boatspeed into a 45 knot wind for over an hour. And we are a"high windage" cat with 23sqm of total frontal area. We will be able to motor continuously into 30 knots on the DC genset. Based on math from "Principles of Yacht Design 2nd edition, Larsson&Eliasson".
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Old 29-11-2016, 15:48   #484
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Octopus View Post
Based on my experience, I'd agree with 2, 3, 7, 8, 9 and possibly 6. I seriously doubt 1, 4 and 10. I note that you don't include any of the negatives: 1. top-end power (at comparable TCO), 2 Complexity.

You didn't even mention what, for me, is one of the great advantages of of a diesel-electric propulsion system, which is the abundance of electrical power that helps to improve the cruiser's quality of life. True, with conventional propulsion you can have this too by installing a powerful genset and a big battery bank, but these are at additional cost, weight and complexity, whereas for diesel-electric these come as standard. The hair-shirt brigade may enjoy living in electrical poverty, but most people enjoy the modern conveniences of life, such as electric ovens, induction hobs, automatic washing machines, air conditioning and AC watermakers that fill your water tanks in under an hour. When living on the hook, it feels really luxurious to have all these things and to never have to worry about the state of the batteries.
Re TCO. Some clarification on TCO is in order. Our TCO analysis is based on providing for alot of motoring hours. I know, I know, that seems paradoxical for an EP boat! That is because (1) from our research the diesel engine hours seems to be chronically underestimated by many, and where there has been some good data gathered, over periods of several years the engine hours is several hundred per year. One example is the Island Cruising Association experience with their members whereby 700 hours/year was reported by their members. I do not know if that was an averaged figure or what. I do not know how much of that was battery charging by running the diesel. Other feedback I've had was in the same ballpark. (2) cruising the Pacific Northwest can need extended motoring when it's calm and extended periods of heavy cloud cover/rain diminishes the solar effectiveness for battery charging, (3) cruising in tropics can have extended motoring in the calms, not to mention motoring for trolling

But it all depends on what you do with your cruising lifestyle and where.

So when we did the 5 year TCO on engine hours of 500/year, EP crossed over and saved us $$$. And we learned in the process the cost of diesel maintenance in $$$ and "hassle factor". We also learned about the spares that are carried by those in remote regions, and about the hassle of trying to get parts flown in from suppliers who don't keep stock and have to "order from Japan, might take 3 or 4 weeks....we hope"

As for 10, the effect on the environment, that is an ethical consideration IMO. If we can burn less fossil fuel, we should do that because we know the consequences if we don't. For me, the idea of losing a GBR in the very forseeable future is not a comfortable feeling ( I think we won't do anything globally effective to mitigate climate change, so the GBR and other reefs systems are doomed, and most of us are watching that happen NOW).

But that is a whole other sad argument.
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Old 29-11-2016, 17:02   #485
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Oh dear, you really are a hardened cynic aren't you? You look for any scrap of phrase or words that might be bent to align with your confirmation bias. Now you know why I related the anti EP crowd to climate change denialists. The mental processes are exactly the same. It does not matter what evidence we present, you will find a way to spin it your way. Now you're resorting to crass vendor bashing, when you know SFA about it. You are going to look very, very foolish, and I would think your credibility here will take a hit, but hey, you've seemingly gots lots of comrades here. And you call yourselves the "rationalists" and "realists"? Ah, that made my day

Somehow all EP vendors are liars and charlatans, and yet curiously, they have hundreds of very happy customers. But YOU know what's really going on, don't you?

Ok, here goes.This technology was demonstrated at METS, (you do know what METS is, don't you?) and there are units on boats now, and there is plenty of test data, and it's been a success, and it's going into production...and yes, I'm getting it.

Silly old me, I've got nothing better to do with our money than throw it away on vapourware.



This thread brings an anonymous quote to mind, "people who claim it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
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Old 29-11-2016, 19:07   #486
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

There is a lot of new technology being developed that will tip the balance more in favour of hybrid solutions although the application will probably remain best suited to catamarans, many of which current run three diesels. Some of the automotive range extenders using engines better suited to single speed generator applications will probably be adaptable to marine applications. Engines such as the Ecomotors Opoc engine, or Bladon turbine systems, should povide generator power in a more compact, lighter, and more efficient package. At the same time new technology and economies of scale will result in less expensive, more power dense batteries. To the extent that some users like Octopus are already somewhat satisfied with their systems I expect that new developments over the next few years will build on the positive aspects and reduce the negatives.

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Old 29-11-2016, 22:26   #487
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

One of keys to the success of electric power on ships is redundancy. Multiple gensets, multiple electric motors driving multiple props via gearboxes allowing for maintenance and repair.

Maneuvering? A well designed boat with, 4 or more 360* azimuth thrusters, can move on the water like a helicopter can move thru the air.

If you really want the best EP system and have the cash, do what the big boys do and go all out.
There are some well established companies with names you will recognize that build some fine equipment.


In my mind there is hope for a greener system in fuel cells. Not a high hope but I find it more likely than battery storage.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/uploads/p...015_status.pdf
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Old 29-11-2016, 23:02   #488
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Rob

I was playing with electric motors when I did my engineering degree in the 70's. I have an electric motor vehicle. It is simply not true to state that I have a predilection for diesels.

The technology is not a step change and is well understood and has been for decades.

There are certain philosophical difficulties with your line of argument.

"You have to drink the cool aid in order to refute it".

No, just as I do not have to listen to the argument of every climate denier, flat earther, or anti-evolutionist I do not need to devote my life to debunking oceanvolt's claims. Rather, views can be formed on the basis of the laws of physics, real experience and the peer reviewed opinions of experts.

"The exception makes the rule"

Contrary to the EP evangalists, who claim that EP is the be all and end all, most here have quite happily stated that there are circumstances where EP is applicable. Longhurst put 75Hp diesels in Kato as he intended ocean cruising. He then concluded that racing and close coastal cruising was his bag, so last I heard he was putting outboards on his latest Schionning. He may well have decided to put EP motors now and that is the Schionning you refer to. Certainly, if I was in his position I would seriously consider EP. Octupus states that he is typically only one hour from anchor. In that instance I would also seriously consider EP.

However, you have stated that you wish to cruise the Pacific and that is a completely different kettle of fish. Your argument that some people have selected EP does not translate that EP is suitable for all situations, especially open water cruising.

Finally, you state that you will be able to motor at 4kn in reasonable windage. This will not allow for sea state so let us say 3kn, yet to be proven. I have stated to you many examples of protracted periods where extended motoring is required in quite difficult and uncomfortable conditions. I would be very interested to be a fly on the wall when you tell your wife that the distance to the next protected anchorage is 30 km and will take 10 hours when she sees the old lagoon (no disrespect intended to lagoon) chug by at 6kn and will get there 5 hours before you.

Finally, it is all very well to quote the capability of ocean volt engineers, but when you are 500Km from anywhere - say between Vanuatu and Aus, there will not be an Ocean Volt engineer to be seen. You will be dependant on one generator, with all of its attendant issues, as compared to two diesels which are independent other than fuel supply. In two years my generator has failed a few times for various reasons. My diesels have never failed and if they did I pretty much know how to get them going again. A generator is a black box with a lot of electronics, and Murphies law dictates that it can and will fail at the worst of times. A clear example of this to me is the Autopilot which I have had fail on me on numerous occasions. On this basis alone I would not equip EP unless I had two generators.

Again, I would like to be a fly on the wall when you explain to your wife that the generator has failed and your main means of propulsion (other than sail) is defunct.

In terms of your personal burden of proof I have put it to you for the umpteenth time that this is simple. Simply charter a boat and restrict the diesel revs to the same HP as your EP and take it out in adverse conditions. This will determine your tolerance level for your EP motors. Thus far you have refused to even comment on this suggestion. Perhaps as this would shatter the illusion with experience from the real world.
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Old 29-11-2016, 23:11   #489
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
This thread brings an anonymous quote to mind, "people who claim it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
Perhaps you live in a totalitarian country, but most of us live in a liberal democracy with freedom of thought and action. Ergo, nobody is interrupting anybody as we are all free to do as we please.

What astounds me as one who has made considerable money bucking convention, is why people seek verification of their ideas on an internet site. Who cares what people think - just do it, and crow about it later.

However, if you are going to get on the internet and pound away at some evangelical argument supposedly based on science, with no empirical evidence, do not get surprised or upset when others express a contrary view.
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Old 29-11-2016, 23:30   #490
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by flynlion View Post
Has anyone factored in using one of the new vertical mast mounted wind generators, saw one said to put out 800 watt -1KW at 18 knot wind speed.......just saying that maybe one day it will all be practical. Instead of all the negativity, maybe work toward a solution, I mean who wouldn't want to be totally independent?
Dragging that thing upwind will likely eat up more than 1kw at cruise speed negating anything it generates.

Even sitting at anchor somehow storing all the energy, in 24hr it will produce enough energy to power a 40hp motor for an hour (the battery bank would be huge and expensive).

This isn't negativity, it's working thru the math.
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Old 30-11-2016, 02:53   #491
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Rob

I was playing with electric motors when I did my engineering degree in the 70's. I have an electric motor vehicle. It is simply not true to state that I have a predilection for diesels. Chris, mea culpa, I apologise for making that assumption. And thanks for the rst of your post. As usual it it well meaning and well thought out. However allow me to make some comments on a few points to follow.

The technology is not a step change and is well understood and has been for decades.Yes, completely agree, but that is not really the point. The point has been that to date, from what I can see when I went looking for viable solutions, the issue is the robust application of the technology. Witness your examples of failed systems which did turn out to be failed components when I checked. And at least in the case of TANG, was fixed by Arnie D and is now operational. The new thing to pay attention to is a vendor that takes a truly systems approach and applies QA to the entire cycle of design, engineering, component selection, production, and testing. If there is another example of that I'm not aware of it. You must be able to appreciate what I'm saying, i.e. quality counts. So bagging all EP vendors is just not supported by the facts re robustness and performance. OK?

There are certain philosophical difficulties with your line of argument.

"You have to drink the cool aid in order to refute it".

No, just as I do not have to listen to the argument of every climate denier, flat earther, or anti-evolutionist I do not need to devote my life to debunking oceanvolt's claims. Rather, views can be formed on the basis of the laws of physics, real experience and the peer reviewed opinions of experts.Sure, that's a fair comment, because it's coming from you. I just think it helps to have direct contact with that which you are criticising.

"The exception makes the rule"

Contrary to the EP evangalists, who claim that EP is the be all and end allof which I'm NOT a member of that church, most here have quite happily stated that there are circumstances where EP is applicable.Ah yes. You mean the comments like "it's Ok if you just want to potter in and out of the harbour once in awhile", the demeaning type of comments? Longhurst put 75Hp diesels in Kato as he intended ocean cruising. He then concluded that racing and close coastal cruising was his bag, so last I heard he was putting outboards on his latest Schionning. He may well have decided to put EP motors now and that is the Schionning you refer to.Yes correct. Sweet boat, we visited awhile ago. Certainly, if I was in his position I would seriously consider EP. Octupus states that he is typically only one hour from anchor. In that instance I would also seriously consider EP.Ok, what about the crazy Canadian who runs up and down from Alaska to Central america and out to Hawaii and back? How about the crazy Frenchman who puts himself in mortal danger going out into Bay of Biscay, for the past several years, no less? There are more, but you get the drift.

However, you have stated that you wish to cruise the Pacific and that is a completely different kettle of fish. Your argument that some people have selected EP does not translate that EP is suitable for all situations, especially open water cruising.I hear what you are saying, but the actual bluewater EP cruisers don't seem to share your viewpoint. Shall I ignore them and their experiences? They all emphasize the need for a good sailing boat in adverse conditions, by the way. They talk about seamanship and making good passage decisions. They talk about using weather routing services. Mostly they say that if you are doing something whereby you are totally dependant on your engines, you are already walking a thin line.

Finally, you state that you will be able to motor at 4kn in reasonable windage. This will not allow for sea state so let us say 3kn,No, it does allow for sea state. EP does not seem to be affected as much by sea state (within reason, obviously) as diesel. These users have owned both diesel and now EP, on similar boats, in the same cruising area and conditions, so it's pretty interesting feedback. They say EP has more "grunt" against the wind and waves compared to diesel. Don't ask me for the math or engineering formula, but EP carries it's higher torque throughout the rev range, the torque does not drop off like diesel at higher revs. Is this observation reasonable? It is a very common observation by those out there doing it. So should I assume they are ALL wrong? yet to be proven. I have stated to you many examples of protracted periods where extended motoring is required in quite difficult and uncomfortable conditions.And this is why I pay attention to you, because it does matter. I would be very interested to be a fly on the wall when you tell your wife that the distance to the next protected anchorage is 30 km and will take 10 hours when she sees the old lagoon (no disrespect intended to lagoon) chug by at 6kn and will get there 5 hours before you.Yes, but no disrespect to the old Lagoon, but they likely have no choice in the matter. Perhaps we do because of the boat we've selected?Explain again why we wouldn't be sailing into that 30 knots? Even if it's a fjord with relatively tight tacking room, we do have a powerful furling jib on self tacker & serious daggerboards for better pointing. And if it is really blowing, a strong furling staysail that can be deployed. Why don't we just sail?

Finally, it is all very well to quote the capability of ocean volt engineers, but when you are 500Km from anywhere - say between Vanuatu and Aus, there will not be an Ocean Volt engineer to be seen. No, he won't be with us physically, quite true. BUT, we will be connected to their 24x7 monitoring and diagnostics system, so he probably knows about any system problem before we do. You will be dependant on one generator, with all of its attendant issues, as compared to two diesels which are independent other than fuel supply. In two years my generator has failed a few times for various reasons. My diesels have never failed and if they did I pretty much know how to get them going again. A generator is a black box with a lot of electronics, and Murphies law dictates that it can and will fail at the worst of times.So you are talking here about system and component robustness and reliability. Good, I'm glad you brought that up because this was one of my primary concerns as well. Re the DC Genset, there is a manufacturer of these beasts which has an incredible record for his gensets being reliable. By reliable, I mean that he has sold hundreds if not thousands to the the military, WITHOUT A SINGLE FAILURE OR OPERATIONAL INTERRUPTION! It seems too good to be true, so I checked it out. We saw his manufacturing and why his stuff is so reliable. It is VERY impressive, and we will be choosing one of his DC gensets for this very reason. A clear example of this to me is the Autopilot which I have had fail on me on numerous occasions. On this basis alone I would not equip EP unless I had two generators.Truly, you don't need two. Give me a call and I'll give you the contact.

Again, I would like to be a fly on the wall when you explain to your wife that the generator has failed and your main means of propulsion (other than sail) is defunct.

In terms of your personal burden of proof I have put it to you for the umpteenth time that this is simple. Simply charter a boat and restrict the diesel revs to the same HP as your EP and take it out in adverse conditions.And with respect for the umpteenth time, I have tried to say it's about thrust, not revs and HP at whatever point you measure it. I would do what you suggest. I would want a diesel boat that produced the same thrust as the EP we are getting. But maybe it's easier than that, and less costly. What I WOULD like to do, is do a properly controlled bollard pull test with 45HP (33kW) diesels and measure the pull throughout the rev range and graph it. I would take note of the prop diameter and pitch from the 45HP diesel, and I would do exactly the same test with the OceanVolt 15kW SD15 with exactly the same prop, and graph it. So what is the prediction by you all of what the results would be? This will determine your tolerance level for your EP motors. Thus far you have refused to even comment on this suggestion. Perhaps as this would shatter the illusion with experience from the real world.
Well, aside from the fact that I am flat out on all the details of building our boat and I'd rather buy some equipment with our money rather than waste it on what I see as a fairly useless exercise, since chartering ain't cheap, and I think I have done good due diligence on our decision, I must say I still am not convinced you are correct. I hope that doesn't frustrate you because I know you are not just playing a game and making a point, but you actually have not put forth a convincing argument. Please don't take that the wrong way. I really do appreciate your points, but like your argument about reliability of the genset, we really have done our homework and we believe sincerely that we have done as well as we can. We think this is the best catamaran liveaboard bluewater cruiser design available, or we would have bought something else. Similarly, we took alot of convincing to be persuaded that this specific EP solution would do the job for all the scenarios we set. Does that mean there is not ANY scenario on the world's blue oceans that not scare the bejeesus out of us? Of course not, but would that all go away if we had diesels with 700 liters of fuel?

OK, I'll ask again in case we have missed something. What is the single killer reason that EP is completely the wrong decision for bluewater cruising? Fire away.
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Old 30-11-2016, 03:21   #492
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Don't ask me for the math or engineering formula, but EP carries it's higher torque throughout the rev range, the torque does not drop off like diesel at higher revs.
Not according to previous data posted in this thread, where we saw this EP torque curve.



And for comparison, a fairly typical marine diesel (the top curve is torque) :
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Old 30-11-2016, 04:17   #493
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Not according to previous data posted in this thread, where we saw this EP torque curve.



And for comparison, a fairly typical marine diesel (the top curve is torque) :
Yeah but that is the Torqeedo 30kW Deep Blue motor., as myocean stated.

That drop is just one of the things that led me to another vendor. We saw some strange things with the Deep Blue that didn't add up.

But even so, what is the max torque on the electric vs the diesel?
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Old 30-11-2016, 04:25   #494
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
I'm surprised they don't just fit a pair of electric drive into a donut filled with water - one to generate water movement, another to recapture energy to power the other electric drive. Must be some surplus around to pump back into the grid

Now that's some real thinking! But instead of the one drive on regen you'd have thousands of them. Megawatts like magic!


Race you to the patent office!
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Old 30-11-2016, 04:47   #495
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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This thread brings an anonymous quote to mind, "people who claim it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
Who's producing a hybrid system that matches the capability of a standard diesel with mechanical transmission while getting better efficiency?

No ones claiming you can't build a hybrid system. It's the magic qualities that no one is doing but marketers are claiming that is being questioned.

Then again, if they were actually "doing it", we would see 3rd party testing demonstrating the capabilities.
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