Miami Boat Show ...

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Andrew

It is not at all a problem with metrics. Physics is physics. The comparable boats I referred to have similar length to wetted area ratios.

The problem is that the trend is to increase the height of the mast step in order to increase living space in the saloon. Nathan has done it, Roger has done it at Lightwave, Tag are doing it and many others.

When you do this you increase the Centre of Force or the turning torque on the boat so that in the end you have in the worse case situation boats that can fly a hull at 18 knots such as the Tag 60. The understandable response has been to depower the boat.

This is deemed to be not a problem if you want a reasonable cruising boat with heaps of comfort, but it is a problem if you want exceptional performance. It all depends on your requirements.

In my view the gold standard is the 5X, an opinion with which I am sure you would not disagree, so I take my best metrics from there and compare others to that. On that basis the FF46 is underpowered. Now others may not want or need similar performance to the 5X and fair enough. This is simply my view.

I have spoken to Nathan and he believes the sail plan is adequate for a cruising lifestyle and I have no issue with that. However, I would want to beef it up. Just my opinion.

I have been comparing boats for quite awhile as part of my quest for a real bluewater cruising cat that will sail well to windward and in light airs re performance. I've settled on the FreeFlow 46, for many reasons and performance is one of them. But there is such a thing as a boat being too edgey for comfortable cruising, of that I am convinced. So not too light nor too heavy, not too much SA/D, nor too little. Has slippery hulls shape but can carry cruising payload.
By comparing the FF46 to an Outremer 5X, is is not apples to apples. I just looked up the comparison on multihull dynamics and for a boat that is 58 foot vs 46 foot, sure it's a faster boat, naturally. BIG stick with BIG sail area. But for a couple to manage and reef quickly in a big blow?

Now compare like with like and the same comparison of the FF46 vs the Outremer 45 shows better metrics for the FreeFlow 46 on almost every item. Better Bruce #, better Texel rating, faster on KSI & yes better SA/D etc etc.
Just saying that a really great cruising design is not an easy thing to achieve, and I was pleasantly surprised to see how the FreeFlow 46 scrubs up vesus the Antares 44i, Catanas, and even the Outremers. Gunboats seem to be in a go fast league of their own

[cwjohm]

You will not get an argument from me that the FF46 is around the same metrics as the O45. On Outremer's own admission they have depowered this to be more of a cruising boat.

I was not comparing the O5X itself but rather its metrics.

The main point is that when you get to sail on Keshi it performs to your expectations. Be interested to hear what you think.

[Newcatcruisers]

thanx all for the info,re marinas and costs in Australia. TUSKIE...looked up the marina in Brisbane.....looks good. Ill look you up if it happens. Have to decide over next few weeks what to do. Sell or sail!!!!


CWJOHM. fascinating to follow discussion on sail plan/metrics etc. Realise the designers really do have a tough time with cruisers ....balancing the need for speed/comfort /safety/aesthetics/cost....
i suppose i would be in the camp not minding too much if the boat was tad underpowered as long as she is safe and gets family/gear from A to B and is easy as possible to handle. Comfort huge for those with spouses not used to the water. If they are not happy its all over clover.!


However,i would aspire to being able down the road to something bit more exciting. What i look forward to is what these clever blokes are going to come up with down the road.
Who knows what will be on offer in a few years time. Meanwhile,good to look and learn.

DOWNUNDER Furniture a minor. Otherwise,hard not to like the boat. Hope you get your boat ASAP!

[BigBeakie]

Ah, I didn't know the Outremer 45 was a more cruising orientated design. I thought they were all screamers from what I had heard and read. Thanks for clarifying that.

I'm in Perth now and the Doctor has been blowing pretty well, so I hope we get an "interesting" sail on KESHI. I'll let you know how it goes on all points of sail and how the wishbone rig performs. I'm like a puppy with two tails, can't wait!

[downunder]

Apparently according to Nathan Stanton the choice of rig for Keshi was conservative for cruising with young family. No doubt he could spec a taller rig if you desired. For me conservative is good.

The design was not conceived to be a race winner but a reasonable performing long distance cruiser.

cheers

[cwjohm]

Absolutely. As I said, taller mast, bigger sail plan.

Beef up the construction specs (no mention of vinylester or epoxy treatment), furniture, electrics and so on and so forth and for U$800K you would have a great boat if you are prepared to risk manufacture in Lima. I would be prepared to be second boat out of the factory once I had seen the first.

I have been quoted substantially more in $A to build in Oz by a reputable builder.

[Newcatcruisers]

BB...hope you have a blast!! look forward to the report.

[boneboy]

As a wrap of the boat show, I am surprised that no one has commented on the belles of the ball. I realize that few have the budget for the higher end, but that is the beauty of a boat show,- you can tour, poke, prod and dream about ALL the boats there. Not necessarily just the ones that you may realistically afford.
That being said, I found the Outremer 5x to be a beautiful boat, well thought out, and well put together. She was however, "bigger" than I thought, meaning, I think she would be a bit of a beast to sail short handed. On the other hand, I found the Gunboat 60 "smaller" than I thought I would. Very different boats, and I would absolutely love to sail on either one of them. However, for pure "hanging out" whether at a marina or on the hook, I don't think any of the boats hold much on the Catana 59. Talk about luxury! And while I don't think they can hold a candle to the Gunboat (or Outremer 5x) in the performance dept., I do think they can sail, and you could throw a hell of a party when you got there. Of course you may not be able to afford the beer after putting down a cool 3 mil for the boat.

My 2cents as a dreamer

[Multihull]

Originally Posted by boneboy

.... Of course you may not be able to afford the beer after putting down a cool 3 mil for the boat.

Nah, the first demo boat and hardly used for only 1,680,000 (euro)


Catana-Catamarans-59

[EllesBelles]

Regarding speed of the Outremer, we met a sailor at Miami's Strictly Sail last month who had been hired to sail the Outremer to the show from the Caribbean and he said it was hard to slow it down. I think it was the 5X