Leopard VS Lagoon

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong but the minimum wage in France is at least 4 times higher than in South Africa. Wouldn't this translate into the ability of SA to build much better boats to the same price point?

Theoretical YES but..
they may also elect to build as cheaply as possible and sell with a higher profit margin.

Also keep in mind that labour is mostly in the hull and the hull is just a small fraction of the overall cost.

[smj]

http://www.jordanyachts.com/5170

[CatNewBee]

Cheap labor does not necessary mean higher quality.
All technology inside is the same (electronics, autopilots, winches, sails, engines...) and nowadays made in China. They are purchased and fitted in all vessel, it is a monoculture. So no difference.

Than it comes to engineering and experience. I cannot judge the performance in general on stuff in developed countries vs. countries with cheap labor, but usualy people with extraordinary skills tend to migrate to places with high wages and better infrastructure.

There is a reason why some countries are more developed than others, also the products they produce.

[ed91e]

Originally Posted by smj

http://www.jordanyachts.com/5170

The article is seven years old. Still reliable?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by ed91e

The article is seven years old. Still reliable?

It has never been a reliable. its the subjective opinion of one single person / company, and nobody knows their agenda.

[Steve_C]

Originally Posted by rabbi

It has never been a reliable. its the subjective opinion of one single person / company, and nobody knows their agenda.

I would hope my ocean going yacht is NOT being built by "minimum wage" workers!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Steve_C

I would hope my ocean going yacht is NOT being built by "minimum wage" workers!

Then your only option is DIY.

This is a dirty and smelly job, and is for sure done by lowly skilled minimum wage workers. Throughout the world.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Then your only option is DIY.



This is a dirty and smelly job, and is for sure done by lowly skilled minimum wage workers. Throughout the world.

This may hold true for the top 3 mass produced brands of catamarans but does not hold true for all catamarans. Check out some of the Dazcat YouTube videos, hulls being layed up by experienced fiberglassers, some even appear to be close to retirement age.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by smj

This may hold true for the top 3 mass produced brands of catamarans but does not hold true for all catamarans. Check out some of the Dazcat YouTube videos, hulls being layed up by experienced fiberglassers, some even appear to be close to retirement age.

Of course you are right, this is true for affordable mass production cats.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Theoretical YES but..
they may also elect to build as cheaply as possible and sell with a higher profit margin.

Also keep in mind that labour is mostly in the hull and the hull is just a small fraction of the overall cost.

I agree with your first point but definitely not the second.

This article estimates 17000 man hours to build the 421 and 19000 to build the 450. No need to be a mathematician to see how labor rates could save tens of thousands of dollars.
https://multihullcompany.com/article...ging-market-2/

SA likely has fewer and cheaper benefits for workers on top of the base hourly rate.
SA likely has far fewer environmental regulations and thus can potentially use cheaper or more suitable products.

I'm sure there are some other reasons, but Leopard cats sell for less money than the other big two French brands, at least when new.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I agree with your first point but definitely not the second.

This article estimates 17000 man hours to build the 421 and 19000 to build the 450. No need to be a mathematician to see how labor rates could save tens of thousands of dollars.
https://multihullcompany.com/article...ging-market-2/

SA likely has fewer and cheaper benefits for workers on top of the base hourly rate.
SA likely has far fewer environmental regulations and thus can potentially use cheaper or more suitable products.

I'm sure there are some other reasons, but Leopard cats sell for less money than the other big two French brands, at least when new.

That article talks about one-off carbon boats made by Balance Catamarans in China. Very different from Lagoon mass products with optimized & somewhat automated build processes.
Compare the labour cost of a Toyota Camry and a handmade sportscar.


Sure there is a cost difference, but its not that huge. SA is cheaper only for labour. All materials (hatches, mast, engines, ...) need to be imported, so its the same cost.
Taking into account lower productivity, significantly increased cost for process monitoring and quality assurance, increase defect rectification effort, etc reduces the potential savings.


But if these savings are passed through to the buyer thats nice. I have no clue about pricing of Leopards as I have never considered buying one.

[CatNewBee]

They all cost almost the same, Lagoon is cheapest per foot, than Leopard, followed by Fountaine Pajot. The options lists to make it ready to sail differ also a lot between the top 3.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by rabbi

That article talks about one-off carbon boats made by Balance Catamarans in China. Very different from Lagoon mass products with optimized & somewhat automated build processes.
Compare the labour cost of a Toyota Camry and a handmade sportscar.


Sure there is a cost difference, but its not that huge. SA is cheaper only for labour. All materials (hatches, mast, engines, ...) need to be imported, so its the same cost.
Taking into account lower productivity, significantly increased cost for process monitoring and quality assurance, increase defect rectification effort, etc reduces the potential savings.


But if these savings are passed through to the buyer thats nice. I have no clue about pricing of Leopards as I have never considered buying one.

Catamaran Depreciation | Multihulls Quarterly

This article references 'about 3 times the labor' to build a balance.
That still put labor at 6000+ hours as an estimate.

SA is one of the largest catamaran centers in the world. I doubt they require more supervision just because they are paid less. They are paid less because the economy they live in determines that, not their need for greater supervision.

Either way, same configuration (apples to apples) seems to sell new for less money from Leopard.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Catamaran Depreciation | Multihulls Quarterly

This article references 'about 3 times the labor' to build a balance.
That still put labor at 6000+ hours as an estimate.

Until the big three open their books noone will ever know the manhours that go into a FP, Lagoon or Leopard.
These articles are just guesses from someone with limited insight, and may well be aired to support their case (no one can proof them right or wrong).

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

SA is one of the largest catamaran centers in the world. I doubt they require more supervision just because they are paid less. They are paid less because the economy they live in determines that, not their need for greater supervision.

My (limited) experience tells me this is politically correct but wishful thinking when moving production to Asia.
I don't know much about SA so maybe its different.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if R&C have a better cost basis or if they just take a smaller chunk for profit. At the end of the day they put a price sticker on their products and we can only decide to buy or not.

[CbroTheDude]

Lagoon might also get the same equipment at a lower cost thanks to the scale of the Beneteau group