Leopard VS Lagoon

[smj]

Our Searunner has all the furniture at the very least affixed with a large epoxy filet, absolutely no creaking groaning or noise of any sorts. All without the liberal use of WD40!


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[Bean Counter]

Teflon tape fixes most furniture creaks, the stuff cabinet makers use for timber drawer slides. I leaned this when my wife bought a new Range Rover and its doors creaked. They put Teflon tape on the door sills - problem solved. On our L450 I have used it on the floor boards - works well.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Teflon tape fixes most furniture creaks, the stuff cabinet makers use for timber drawer slides. I leaned this when my wife bought a new Range Rover and its doors creaked. They put Teflon tape on the door sills - problem solved. On our L450 I have used it on the floor boards - works well.

Yep, much better than WD40 which will just soak into the wood.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Teflon tape fixes most furniture creaks, the stuff cabinet makers use for timber drawer slides. I leaned this when my wife bought a new Range Rover and its doors creaked. They put Teflon tape on the door sills - problem solved. On our L450 I have used it on the floor boards - works well.

I'm not sure I understand where you put this or how it works. When you say they put it on the door sills, is it just acting as a spacer?

Thx,

[Bean Counter]

Any where two surfaces rub occasionally that causes a squeak. So in our boat I stick the tape to the underside of the floor board or edge where it flexes against other timber when you walk on it for example. Also between furniture tabs, some place are difficult to get to though. When I was referring to the car example it was a metal on rubber squeak that was resolved with clear teflon sticky tape.Note similar tapes are made from nylon and UHMW polyethelene - plenty to choose from eg https://www.amazon.com/TapeCase-423-...re-bullets-btf

[LeeV]

Ah, I have it now; thanks for the explanation. I’m guessing on a new boat, you’d want to give it some break in time to discover all those spots.

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Maybe an expert could chime in but I would think there's a chance the saturation could be isolated by numerous things. Some boats cored with end grain balsa have grooves or channels much like the front between times that mitigate moisture transgression, and minimize the damage. Not entirely sure how each of those boats are constructed but unless they were free or close to it, I doubt it's a good deal anyways

Cored hulls have plenty of benefits for the manufacturer. Mostly to save cost, weight and speed up the build process.

In terms of durability a cored hull will have a primary failure mode of core delamination, core structural failure or saturation.

The structural failure of the core would be my detectable on these hurricane damaged boats. The core can fail from an impact which can be repaired relatively easily and with high confidence. These failures tend to also be visible.

But once water gets into the core it will find its way through any defect. That water will exacerbate any latent defects which are nearly impossible to detect. It will expand, contract, it is a great solvent and it will form a very abrasive paste with dirt and foam. This is my bigfest concern.

I've just been watching yacht life productions on youtube. Two young guys have resurrected a hurricane and water damaged cat. It wasn't cheap and I think this boat will be a big ongoing issue for them. If the boat was free and I was in my twenties with 2 or 3 mates it could be a good way to sail the world for a few tears. Time will tell.

We haven't seen enough cored boats over a long enough time frame to fully understand the difference in useful life between solid glass and cored hulls.

Based on our seeing a few cored hulls during our 125 boat search back in 2012 i would avoid trying to restore a cored hull. Delamination was evident in all of them.

My 30+ years dealing with composites in motorsports has shown me that cored composites have huge performance benefits but repairability is generally a waste of time. Water intrusion is so destructive especially with foam cores. Most yacht hull dynamic loads are low frequency strain dominant. Number of cycles to failure is often very short.

Buying from new and selling a cored hull makes good sense.

[CatNewBee]

The core adds strength / stiffness to the structure by his geometry, while making it lighter, so in general it is a good thing. However De-Lamination and Water intrusion may have negative impacts later on. There are lots of different approaches, honeycomb foam structures, balsa core structures etc.

[billknny]

There is another downside to cored hulls that has not been mentioned here yet. They are lighter, and much stiffer per weight. Those are good things. Water intrusion is not a routine problem, if all thru-hulls are installed properly and there has been not damage to the hull.

But... the outer skin is still just a few mm thick, and is much more fragile than a solid hull to a penetrating impact. Something that would bounce off a solid glass hull cracks the outer skin (or worse) on a cored hull.

With a well made cored hull you can hit on it with the face side of a hammer all day long, and do very little damage. Turn the hammer over, and hit it with the claw side, you'll find a very different effect. The concentrated impact of the the sharp points will fracture the skin rather easily.

You can make things better by armoring the core's outer skin with carbon, kevlar, or the like, but the problem remains. Frequently the designer then takes advantage of the stronger material and makes the skin even thinner!

This would seem doubly important to catamaran sailors who tend to move at higher speeds.

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by LeeV

I look at this fellow's videos from time to time and appreciated some of the tech advise. This one just arrived and from the area he's covered, the seas they've crossed and the looks of this footage, including where they anchored, I don't think he's worried about any flexing.

I will say, the couple of times I've been aboard Lagoons, they did seem to creak more than any other.

AFAIK , cat Impi (a lagoon 440) structure has been reinforced by owners IOT have peace of mind in their world sailings!

[FlyingScot]

A lot of reports of Lagoons squeaking and I don't hear the same about leopards. Choose what you like. Personally squeaking would make me crazy. I bought a leopard40 and I'm happy so far.

[rabbi]

Lagoon squeak. FPs squeak. No Experience with other brands.

None of these has known structural issues due to this squeaking. At least nothing has been spread on the internet. If such reports existed folks like geoleo (is he still around?) would certainly use them for Lagoon bashing to achieve his goals.

[Nelsons]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Seems you have a very strong opinion. Obviously not everyone shares your wisdom as FP and Lagoon also sell a few boats

It`s great that there are multiple opinions, it´s much appreciated. I got your filigran undertone and I may insure you that I do not claim to make a great show of learning. Au contraire.

You know I came from monohulls and had to learn everything about cats from scratch. I talked with many professional boat builders and my assessment is a result of these conversations. But further research confirmed this picture as you hardly find any negative about Leo but a lot of FP (less of Lagoon), especially from beyond the 5+ year owning stretch.

Mentioned this I do not claim for myself to have any perspective. But I am very positive about my decision. Lets see if this will change in 5 years from now :-)

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Nelsons

It`s great that there are multiple opinions, it´s much appreciated. I got your filigran undertone and I may insure you that I do not claim to make a great show of learning. Au contraire.

You know I came from monohulls and had to learn everything about cats from scratch. I talked with many professional boat builders and my assessment is a result of these conversations. But further research confirmed this picture as you hardly find any negative about Leo but a lot of FP (less of Lagoon), especially from beyond the 5+ year owning stretch.

Mentioned this I do not claim for myself to have any perspective. But I am very positive about my decision. Lets see if this will change in 5 years from now :-)

Well, the post I responded to with a sweet undertone sounded very different:

Originally Posted by Nelsons

But coming back to the topic, I am convinced that in no way it can compete with a Leopard. I did a lot of research before I have signed for a Leo45 three months ago and it was not even a close decision.

Thats a very bold statement.


With regards to the lack of negative comments from Leopards owners, maybe I can give you another perspective:
Have you compared the production figures for FP, Lagoon, Leopard over the last 15-20 years?


Just look at the number of used sailboats on yachtworld:

year 1995-1999
Lagoon: 18
FP: 17
R&C: 2

year 2000-2004
Lagoon: 38
FP: 33
R&C: 21

year 2005-2010
Lagoon: 140
FP: 52
R&C: 21

year 2011-2015:
Lagoon 197
FP 48
Leopard 60

Completely unscientified research I know but good enough for me.


R&C is now trendy because people see them sail all over the world, but thats just the effect of the sunsail / moorings deal. Before Moorings and Sunsail changed to RC Leopard for their preferred cat supplier R&C was a tiny builder with limited success in the market.
Without this deal I doubt we would even talk about leopards these days as they would be as important as for example Outremer.


none of this implies anything about Leopards in terms of former or recent build quality.

But you can clearly see why there are no negative comments on older R&Cs. Because they don't exist in significant numbers.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by billknny

There is another downside to cored hulls that has not been mentioned here yet. They are lighter, and much stiffer per weight. Those are good things. Water intrusion is not a routine problem, if all thru-hulls are installed properly and there has been not damage to the hull.

But... the outer skin is still just a few mm thick, and is much more fragile than a solid hull to a penetrating impact. Something that would bounce off a solid glass hull cracks the outer skin (or worse) on a cored hull.

With a well made cored hull you can hit on it with the face side of a hammer all day long, and do very little damage. Turn the hammer over, and hit it with the claw side, you'll find a very different effect. The concentrated impact of the the sharp points will fracture the skin rather easily.

You can make things better by armoring the core's outer skin with carbon, kevlar, or the like, but the problem remains. Frequently the designer then takes advantage of the stronger material and makes the skin even thinner!

This would seem doubly important to catamaran sailors who tend to move at higher speeds.

What is your evidence ? Hope you not one of these paid trolls.

Here is a pic of 42 feet monhull hitting our L 400 with considerable force with its metal anchor aparatus. Only gelcoat damage. I was impressed by Lagoon impact resistance, so should be you