Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Racers use expensive small diameter ropes and add a cover for the jammers . That is a viable solution to their quest for ulimate weight savings.

as i understand the problem here: lagoon has provided a cheap 12mm halyard that has stretched so much its now more a 10mm line and does no longer fit the jam8mer.
In that case i would call that solution a cheap fix.

Maybe they excluded running rigging wear from their warranty all together but still a halyard should not wear in 6 months.

As I understand the process, Lagoon only specified the diameter of the line. Actual line was supplied by a company/person who completed the commissioning in port where the boat was floated. This company (that did a lousy and cheap solution) was appointed by your agent. By the way, the B&G equipment is excellen, but as above, it was not installed by the factory but by people chosen by your agent.
This agent is also responsible for your warranty issues and be your main target for complaints, especially the important ones, e.g. water ingress which are certainly a major fault of Lagoon itself.

[ka4wja]

Cottontop,
A blanket statement like this, has not been my experience....yes, many manufacturers have no concern for repeat business, nor interest in actual customer service, but this is not the case for all of them!!!

Originally Posted by Cottontop

The problem with boat builders is that repeat customers are not very important to them. And as nobody (OP excluded) wants to talk down their own boat, word of mouth isn't a big problem for them, either.

As I wrote earlier, we all know that the likes of Hinckley, Morris, Swan, etc. treat every customer with respect and appreciation, whether or not they'll ever be a "repeat customer"...
But, surprisingly Catalina Yachts does the same thing!!
(although in Catalina's case, many of their customers are "repeat customers")

It is not my intention, so please forgive the following, as it might come off as a sales pitch...but, just 'cause some (many?) production boat manufacturers take the easy/cheap way out, and ignore customer service, etc...this doesn't mean that all of them do...(and my personal experience with Hinckley, Tayana, and Catalina, prove that some still do place the customer first!)


Any owner can call the Catalina office/factory (during regular business hours, or e-mail someone directly even during off-hours, and get an actual personal response!), and talk directly to the customer service manager, Warren Pandy, to discuss an issue with any of their boats, no matter how old, nor how many owners it has had over those years!
And, you can also talk directly with the designer and company VP, Gerry Douglas, if you like...ask him a question, get some info, lodge a complaint, etc...

If your query is an obscure one, or one that requires more input, in addition to a follow-up call and further info, you'll get a call from Frank Butler (the founder and president of Catalina Yachts), assuring you that they're working on the issue and asking if there is anything else that he can do to help!

And, understand that this is with 2nd, 3rd, or 4th owners of production boats, costing only a fraction of what someone is paying for a Hinckley!!!
{btw, I grew up sailing on my parents Hinckley, so I am also very familiar with their excellent customer service!}

Also, they provide considerable pre-purchase info/consultation, as well as free/open factory tours...
And, if you desire to look-in on your boat being manufactured, they welcome you or your surveyor!

Over 45 years in business, with > 60,000 boats made...they've learned a thing or two about pleasing their customers!!
As well as knowing what materials / components / equipment to use on their boats!!!




Again, sorry if I drifted this thread....just wanted to make it clear that you cannot paint all boat manufacturers with the same brush!!


fair winds..

John

P.S. I'm still waiting for Frank to e-mail a copy of his survey to me....so Thanks to those of you who have read it, for posting pertinent parts here!!

[Emerald Sea]

To be fair to Lagoon, and not take away from Frank A's experience, I have only good things to say regarding Lagoon and their agent (Simpson Marine). They have been supportive and responsive. In only one major issue where Lagoon major was bought in, again sportive and responsive with follow up actions. Lagoon rely on their international agents to provide after sales service and I can imagine that the quality of that service varies considerably.

I can only say that you need to be in the drivers seat. Others don't always share our sense of concern or priority.


Steve
L450
SV Emerald Sea

[rabbi]

As I understand the process, Lagoon only specified the diameter of the line. Actual line was supplied by a company/person who completed the commissioning in port where the boat was floated.

As far as i understand the process all standard equipment and all options from the official price list are provided / installed by the factory or by subcontractors appointed by the factory. There is little way to change options with them. The only thing a dealer can do is send parcels to the factory to place them in the ship. A dealer can't install anything before the boat has officially left the factory.
Otherwise lagoon would have lots of unknown subcontractors running around in the factory which they certainly don't want. It would be impossible for lagoon to schedule their work if every dealer would send their own electonics guy or plumber.

The dealer may choose not to buy a certain set of equipment but do an aftermarket install. That is often done where the dealer thinks he can make money by doing it himself, like with solar panels or gensets.



I can only recommend anyone interested in the lagoon internals to read the lagoon distribtor handbook which was made public in a litigation. Its available here.

After reading the details it includes on payments, factory visits and pre-delivery inspections (1.5 hrs max!) I am happy that i am in the used boat market only. I can always see, survey, feel and test my next boat before handing over significant money. A new boat buyer seems to be at the mercy of lagoon.

[meirriba]

Rabbi
I did not say that the dealer supplied the line.
The commisioning company did that.
These companies that make the final commissioning are all approved by Lagoon but the agent may choose among the approved ones (there are several options).

[rabbi]

@meirriba
Understood. But that only applies to the materials used during the final rigging and commissioning?

I expect the instruments as well as gas plumbing, deck fittings, etc are all done by Lagoon or their sub contractors.

[Pelagic]

Whenever you see (as is happening now) a lot of finger pointing over who is responsible for the final product delivered to the customer....
It simply highlights a sloppy contract and opportunistic business practices by Builder and Dealer.

Buyer Beware!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Whenever you see (as is happening now) a lot of finger pointing over who is responsible for the final product delivered to the customer....
It simply highlights a sloppy contract and opportunistic business practices by Builder and Dealer.

Buyer Beware!

Kinda sums it up.


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[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smj

Kinda sums it up.


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Agreed! How stupid are buyers of sailboats these days??? You buy a car and its full of parts not made by the manufacturer but if you need service do they send you back to whoever made the parts? Of course not, they built the bloody thing and they stand behind it.

[transmitterdan]

Yacht manufacturing is not like automobile manufacturing. Many of the systems on a yacht are not warranted by the manufacturer because the yacht building industry is not vertically integrated the way automobile industry is so the comparison isn't valid. In an automobile the auto drive functions cannot be switched out for another brand. But in a yacht you can get any brand you like for auto pilot and later you can switch it out for another brand. Same thing applies to winches, windlass, engine, gear train and a host of other components. Each of these subsystems are branded and warranted by their own manufacturer. If it were not so then costs of yachts would be much more than they are and quality would be much worse. Can you imagine if each yacht manufacturer built its own engines or electronic navigation? It would be a disaster. So trying to compare yacht building with automobile industry is just silly.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Yacht manufacturing is not like automobile manufacturing. Many of the systems on a yacht are not warranted by the manufacturer because the yacht building industry is not vertically integrated the way automobile industry is so the comparison isn't valid. In an automobile the auto drive functions cannot be switched out for another brand. But in a yacht you can get any brand you like for auto pilot and later you can switch it out for another brand. Same thing applies to winches, windlass, engine, gear train and a host of other components. Each of these subsystems are branded and warranted by their own manufacturer. If it were not so then costs of yachts would be much more than they are and quality would be much worse. Can you imagine if each yacht manufacturer built its own engines or electronic navigation? It would be a disaster. So trying to compare yacht building with automobile industry is just silly.

OK I'll compare it to the housing business which I have a great deal of knowledge. We, like Yacht builders use products that other builders use, including the same trades..we are quite similar except we share with our competitors even more than the Yacht builders. That's where it all changes because when one of our customers needs something serviced they call us and we deliver. Not only that but we are mandated by a Government agency to provide a further 5 year warranty. We have to place large bonds to ensure we deliver. The way customers or at least this customer is/was treated by the Yacht builder is a joke in today's market place.

[transmitterdan]

We have heard the OP's side of the story but not any other side. There are always at least 3 sides to every situation.

Like yacht builders most home builders do not warrant the hot water heater or refrigerator in a new home. They purchase (under duress of government mandate) a "home warranty" with money paid by the buyer that provides some minimal protection once the original warranty of the appliance manufacturer expires. This may or may not be a good deal for the home buyer.

I hope the OP regularly changes the oil in the sail drive until the seals can be renewed. It is entirely possible this is not a warranty issue but no way to know until the boat can be hauled to check.

The big takeaway from this thread is to always have a professional survey done on any significant boat purchase whether new or used prior to taking delivery. Plan from the outset to pay for this survey yourself as part of the overall cost of the deal. It can save a lot of grief later.

[Geekatlrg]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Yacht manufacturing is not like automobile manufacturing. Many of the systems on a yacht are not warranted by the manufacturer because the yacht building industry is not vertically integrated the way automobile industry is so the comparison isn't valid. In an automobile the auto drive functions cannot be switched out for another brand. But in a yacht you can get any brand you like for auto pilot and later you can switch it out for another brand. Same thing applies to winches, windlass, engine, gear train and a host of other components. Each of these subsystems are branded and warranted by their own manufacturer. If it were not so then costs of yachts would be much more than they are and quality would be much worse. Can you imagine if each yacht manufacturer built its own engines or electronic navigation? It would be a disaster. So trying to compare yacht building with automobile industry is just silly.

That is all ******** excuses.

Take some responsibility for your product!!
I do not judge people by the mistakes they make. I judge people by how they handle the mistakes and this is a great example of what not to do!

Show some pride in your product and quit blaming your mistakes on everyone else man up to it and make it right!


I don’t care of it’s a home, car or a million dollar yacht it’s no excuse for the poor quality of the workmanship.

After reading the dealer pdf posted earlier in this thread. You are allowed a whopping hour and a half to inspect and survey the boat before it leaves the factory o and you’re not allowed to take any pictures for that survey.

This thread has made one thing clear to me if Lagoon ever makes it back on my short list I sure as hell will not buy new they have some serious quality control problems.

shame on Lagoon and everyone here who is defending them..

[Free Indeed]

I had the same problem with a high end RV motor home I purchased. There was a bad vibration at 45mph and over. Called the service department and was told to take it to an authorized (tire manufacturer) dealer. They found a couple tires out of round. I still wasn't happy. They told me to then take it to the drive train manufacturer to have the alignment checked. Still no cure! I finally decided to, on my own take the drive shaft out to have it checked. Bingo! Bend by the transport company when the chassis was being delivered! I filled a claim with the manufacturing company for time, mileage and the repair cost to get the new drive shaft and my labor. Well the manufacturer was NOT happy that to contact them and I had to do all the leg work to get the final results settled that it should have been the dealers responsibility! They were more than just willing to pay for the repairs, but had a list of upgrades that the RV didn't have I could choose from($2,000.+). But it all leads back to the dealer customer service! They should got the extra mile and the manufacturer want feed back! I learned a lesson then. I will never buy new again!! Let someone else the bugs out!


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[meirriba]

Although part of the work is done by the Lagoon factory and part by several commissioning bodies there is always one and single address for complaints: the agent who sold the boat. He represents the company to the buyer and is responsible for the entities ha has chosen to make the final commissioning and to install the various extras and options.
No need to find your way on the fatkness among the several bodies who worked on the boat prior to delivery.
It is also the agents job to make the hand over to the client, go over the systems and help the client to see how everything works and if problems are found - to solve them. Same single point of contact throughout the warranty period.
I repeat - the agent is the single channel.