Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

The new ones are pretty well junk, until you fix them. I like the TPI lagoons, I may buy one someday if I decide I am tired of my mono cave. I have surveyed a lot of boats, I find the Juneau and lagoon brands some of the worst accidents waiting to happen I have seen. Maybe if the lagoons were not such dock queens we would see more major failures, but if your going to make a circ, Its the wrong boat.

many have circumnavigated and if you have surveyed some of them you know that. Or how do they get to the places where you surveyed them? All delivered by DHL?

Since you have surveyed them you should have a harddrive full of pictures to proof that these Lagoons are just a desaster waiting to happen. Please show us some pictures of failed structural components on Lagoons. No boat names, no details, just anonymous pictures and type of boat.

Is it Lagoon bashing day again?
Yes, Lagoon cut corners here. Yes, they have a design flaw that can lead to rot in one bulkhead on the 400. Can happen. Not a big problem to me as long as they stand behind their product and repair it.

[arsenelupiga]

quick search this comment on bulkheads from more knowledgable member - benetau but i guess lagoon fits in as well. It appears bashers are bit behind times.
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The way Beneteau build boats , the structural strength is in the interior moulding and the hull and deck . The reason for the acrylic foam adhesive is just to hold the bulkhead from moving in the slot it is slid into in the interior modules . The bulkhead should not be thought of in the old sense of an ultimate compression member that is tabbed and laminated into the hull ,but more of a space divider and a minor structural component . If you are unsure of this , look at the thickness of the bulkhead and how it attaches .
That said ,a lot of boats have had problems with the bulkhead breaking the adhesive and creaking and moaning . Some folks have repaired part of it by using epoxy and filler and have caused a bigger problem in that now only a small section is held solid and the rest flexes causing bulkhead tearing , this was found in the Beneteau "Beachballs" that where raced quite actively . The best way is to dig out all the foam adhesive on one side of the bulkhead and replace with epoxy and filler thus stabilizing the whole bulkhead .

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

this is L42. I thought we concentrate on L400. So, you say all lagoons are crap. I follow lagoon owner group for long time and aware of most structural issues, as nearly everyone with issue gets there as Lagoon is on the forum too.

Number of structural failures is small. They have over 2000 boats sailing, and probably know best how to build cats from the user feedback. Worst I know is hull crack, probably due to lifting procedure and on another cat structural cracks on bridgedeck.

Both were fixed by owners. Also 1 x fallen rig.

Bulkhead issues come up relatively often, they are not critical.

You claim to be better expert than lagoon. Fair enough, it is internet, but I trust Lagoon expertise due to largest pool of boats out there.

You have not convinced me not to buy lagoon as my next boat.

I did not say that all Lagoons are crap, nor would I because how could I know that? I am not bashing the brand, I am showing photos that were sent to me by a qualified repair yard of a particular boat. A data point of one!

But it is only logical that this would not be the only Lagoon built that uses Plexus to bed bulkheads. I have spoken to the manufacturer of Plexus and they confirmed that this is a ridiculous application for structural bulkheads. It is cost cutting taken to the max & symptomatic of a race to the bottom. Lagoon are not alone in this, the market is buying on price as the major determinant, and some things get sacrificed along the way. Their market is the charter industry which is non-demanding use, we get that, and nothing wrong with that.

But main structural bulkheads that split under only moderately rough seas? And using adhesive materials in a woeful manner? Really?

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Bulkhead issues are somewhat scary to me. Our old Lagoon 410 had all bulkheads completely glassed over, and newer like the 400 just have untreated plywood glassed in place.



Can you show some more photos of the bulkhead?

Because it doesn't show a crack. Its a jigsaw cut as you can see in the marked section . The two pieces of the bulkhead just don't match and the glass in the left top corner has clearly been cut, too.

Maybe this just shows some stage of the repair, but the photo is no evidence of a crack. Its just evidence that someone used a jigsaw.

That is true the cut follows the crack/split, so it could be structurally bonded again. The boat was repaired (ALOT of work as the boat wracked and split ALL the door bulkheads and furniture components broke loose etc.), and then immediately sold quite inexpensively, I believe.

[arsenelupiga]

from post of someone more knowledgable, one can conclude that these bulkheads are not structural.

I am not marine expert but only good at physics:

Lagoon is ~ 2 T heavier than comparable other brands cat. Yes thats bad but must be good for something:

Lagoon is strong enough without bulkheads, unlike other boats of similar size that need bulkheads because they are lightly built and this is where your frustration is coming from.

User experiences dictated that approach, would be my wild guess.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

from post of someone more knowledgable, one can conclude that these bulkheads are not structural.

I am not marine expert but only good at physics:

Lagoon is ~ 2 T heavier than comparable other brands cat. Yes thats bad but must be good for something:

Lagoon is strong enough without bulkheads, unlike other boats of similar size that need bulkheads because they are lightly built and this is where your frustration is coming from.

User experiences dictated that approach, would be my wild guess.

That conclusion of superflous bulkheads assumes that these ~2 tons are in structural material and in an area that could make good the loss of bulkhead strength.
A very simplified and unsafe assumption. If you compare the build concepts you will find that Lagoon uses much of this weight for cosmetics and aesthetics.


I am sure that any cat will move like a rubber duck if the main bulkhead was removed. Lagoons are no exception.
So unless the original design team of the 400 steps up and confirms your conclusion I expect the 400 is just the same.


You have mentioned this weird "weight equals strength" mantra a few times now. Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

from post of someone more knowledgable, one can conclude that these bulkheads are not structural.

I am not marine expert but only good at physics:

Lagoon is ~ 2 T heavier than comparable other brands cat. Yes thats bad but must be good for something:

Lagoon is strong enough without bulkheads, unlike other boats of similar size that need bulkheads because they are lightly built and this is where your frustration is coming from.

User experiences dictated that approach, would be my wild guess.

Can live without bulkheads? this is pure ignorance......

[arsenelupiga]

this is last on the issue as logic seem not to convince people, as they likely have other interests, like site visits, competition, etc. Or maybe their schooling out of date and forgot to update with the latest.

If main bulkhead is that structurally critical, why is it made of 2 halves on my boat? This is one that person mistakenly thought it is a crack and spread news all over blogs?

My leeward shroud remains firm in 25 kn true beam reach, full sail. Was just testing, dont drive that way. Not many cats can do that.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

I did not say that all Lagoons are crap, nor would I because how could I know that? I am not bashing the brand, I am showing photos that were sent to me by a qualified repair yard of a particular boat. A data point of one!

But it is only logical that this would not be the only Lagoon built that uses Plexus to bed bulkheads. I have spoken to the manufacturer of Plexus and they confirmed that this is a ridiculous application for structural bulkheads. It is cost cutting taken to the max & symptomatic of a race to the bottom. Lagoon are not alone in this, the market is buying on price as the major determinant, and some things get sacrificed along the way. Their market is the charter industry which is non-demanding use, we get that, and nothing wrong with that.

But main structural bulkheads that split under only moderately rough seas? And using adhesive materials in a woeful manner? Really?

I have not studied the construction methodology of all Lagoon models, but believe me, I know every inch of mine. No structural bulkheads on a L400 are bedded in Plexus, they are glassed in.

I don't know the full details of the case of the L420 that you posted, so unlike others I won't speculate. However, it isn't logical to say that bulkheads are improperly attached and simply fall out and then show one that has split (or been sawn) from top to bottom. Surely, an improperly attached bulkhead would pop out rather than break. Another thought; if the L420 broke in " moderately rough" seas due to poor manufacture and design as you suggest, how come many other L420s of exactly the same design and construction have survived unscathed in similiar or much worse conditions. Wouldn't similiar boats break in similiar conditions?

As mentioned before, make sure that you discriminate between true structural bulkheads and non-loadbearing partition walls. The latter are attached with sikaflex on many models. They often squeak and sometimes owners add other products ( Plexus? ) to quieten them.

Regarding the L400 main bulkhead; it is composed of two pieces of plywood, hence a join. However, it is very heavily glassed over on both sides, with extra layers over the join and then glassed in place. It is NOT as suggested, raw ply glued in with Plexus.

The L400 bulkhead "issue" is not breakage or detachment, it is water damage. Freshwater is pooling on top of the curved nacelle on the front of the bridgedeck. It seems to be entering this area via a faulty or deteriorating window seal. This nacelle area wasn't originally fitted with drains so the fresh water is trapped. Lagoon has subsequently recommended that drain holes are drilled. The trapped freshwater can cause water damage and rot to the plywood structures in the front locker area. Although the main bulkhead is heavily glassed over, this trapped fresh water can access the plywood core via several improperly sealed through holes for pipes and cabling. Once fresh water wets plywood, rot is an inevitable consequence over time.

This issue is relatively easy to diagnose and to remediate. It is not an emergency because the speed of wood rot is not fast. As reported in earlier posts, several owners have had this damage repaired by Lagoon.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

this is last on the issue as logic seem not to convince people, as they likely have other interests, like site visits, competition, etc. Or maybe their schooling out of date and forgot to update with the latest.



If main bulkhead is that structurally critical, why is it made of 2 halves on my boat? This is one that person mistakenly thought it is a crack and spread news all over blogs?



My leeward shroud remains firm in 25 kn true beam reach, full sail. Was just testing, dont drive that way. Not many cats can do that.

Sorry but your logic is completely skewed. What is out of date is believing that the Lagoon is structurally superior due to being overweight. A well designed catamaran uses modern design and materials and remains lightweight. Much less stress on the structure.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

this is last on the issue as logic seem not to convince people, as they likely have other interests, like site visits, competition, etc. Or maybe their schooling out of date and forgot to update with the latest.

If main bulkhead is that structurally critical, why is it made of 2 halves on my boat? This is one that person mistakenly thought it is a crack and spread news all over blogs?

My leeward shroud remains firm in 25 kn true beam reach, full sail. Was just testing, dont drive that way. Not many cats can do that.

I don't have other interests. The 400 is on my shopping list for the next boat. The 400 is what it is. A nice, spacious, somewhat overweight but solid cruising cat. Its not perfect but quite good, and sells well. The bulkhead issue is nothing major IMO, as long as it is openly addressed and treated as a potential issue.


Its just that your conclusion "heavy = strong" is wrong. Add two more freezers, another head and crew cabins and your boat gets stronger? nonsense.

Light is better in cats. But sometimes this means that one has to live without cabinet doors (like in the Mahe).

[katsumi]

Just want to Check the repair method. You are saying the complete bulkhead has been replaced?
Can you please verify this?
TE=Windhook;2137031]We have a Lagoon 400 that will be coming out of charter shortly. The issue with the bulkhead is that fresh water got in behind the bulkhead causing rot. The bulkhead is being completely replaced as a warranty repair from Lagoon. We have not had any other major issues and are excited to start cruising soon.[/QUOTE]

[rallyman1122]

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

The new ones are pretty well junk, until you fix them. I like the TPI lagoons, I may buy one someday if I decide I am tired of my mono cave. I have surveyed a lot of boats, I find the Juneau and lagoon brands some of the worst accidents waiting to happen I have seen. Maybe if the lagoons were not such dock queens we would see more major failures, but if your going to make a circ, Its the wrong boat.

Mono cave. And there folks, is a bias revealed.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

Mono cave. And there folks, is a bias revealed.

If you own a Lagoon you will be bias so what's the difference, almost everyone has bias opinions. It is the rare person who can keep their mind open and learn from the critics as well as those in your tribe that drank the same cool aid.

[rallyman1122]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

If you own a Lagoon you will be bias so what's the difference, almost everyone has bias opinions. It is the rare person who can keep their mind open and learn from the critics as well as those in your tribe that drank the same cool aid.

I will agree to a point. But if you own a Lagoon, you have experience, not bias. If you are a mono hull owner, commenting critically in a multi hull thread, that is bias