Catamaran flips in Rough Seas - Fraser Island

[estarzinger]

Just for the lurkers - chart of the entrance in question:

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

I am of another opinion. People who decide to go to sea in obviously unseaworthy vessels should not be rescued. They should be left to their fate.

Paul

Wow, that is quite some attitude there. Glad you are not in charge of the Coast Guard.

[inchcailloch]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sorry you took it as a Personal slight.
it was not meant as such.. more a generalisation as I do not know if you are a wealthy tax dodger or not..
Every time there's a rescue we get the same chorus.. 'Oh My $$$$'s.. Woe is me.. '
Yet if and when these people find themselves in the same boat it can often be...
"I pay my taxes.. why is the CG/RNLI whatever not faster off the mark.. I mean.. it took them 1hr to come and tow me in.. almost missed my train home"
This is a 'Real Life' scenario every summer w/end in the UK.. but its okay coz they are tax payers...
Only problem in the UK is.. its a Charity.. Not paid for by Taxes..
I was under the impression that OZ Rescue in the main was the same.. Unpaid Voluteers

No offense taken and certainly none intended to be given. Just leaving Panama which is perhaps the biggest rip off for sailors I have ever come across, I am proud of the uk heritage of being virtually paperless. For sailing, mountaineering, canoeing I have never been asked for a bit of paper, forms etc save for the school I was at to take young people out. I used to be a member of mountain rescue, Scotland and subscribe monthly to RNLI. I've seen someone fall to their death in the Alps, been in the next party down on the Mallory route of Everest when the next party was avalanche. Yes, I've been on rescues for people that should never have been on the mountains but the golden rule is not to criticize. I sail solo (3 times atlantic and now Pacific) this many would say is a no no. Most of mountains I've climbed are solo both in Scotland and throughout the world.....again no no. But I would not want it changed for he world. And as Hamish MacInnes once said hearing of the suicide of someone who was a virtual paraplegic after he had rescued the young person follwing a fall in Glencoe. .....I think I'd have done the same myself. And one reason I sail solo, if I die, I die without taking anyone else. I've lived life to the full and not regretted any adventure. As my father always said "I'd rather die living than live dying"

Ps do we then make smokers pay for their related Healthcare? Obese people pay for their treatment? Swimmers for their rescues and those having had electrical faults in their homes, chip pans on fire for the fire services. Please let's not go down the litigation line of America, or even the rescue cost of France.....even though their services are excellent. I think the UK have got the balance and going to other countries, I for one am proud of it!

This is written purely for lively discussion not aggressive argument. .

[boatman61]

WooHoo... that looks fun..
We get the same problem every year down the coast of W Portugal.
Apart from Sines, LisbonCascais and Leixois.. all the ports are on rivers and when the dominant NW swell is up the bars are a death trap.. even Lisbon gets closed on occasion.
Figueira da Foz claims lives annually almost.. Vianna do Castello is another..
The Tiki 26 I delivered to Esposende was the same.. surfed over the bar which one can walk over at low water on a 2+ metre breaking wave.. get it wrong and you crash into the breakwater as no sooner have you crossed.. but still in the surf there's a sharp dogleg to the right to get up river to the marina.
Totally gutted as the owner who was standing on the breakwater to watch me bring his baby in took no photo's.. when I asked he said that my dramatic entry just left him open mouthed with thoughts of pic's wiped out of his mind..
All he could do was go 'Merde.. MERDE..!!

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Saleen411

2) Water Hole- A hole in the water.

Port Stephens entry.

1 m swell. Suddenly without warning 4 m hole of inverted triangular shape (vertical distribution) appears in front of boat. Probably looking at 90 deg angle Bows dip. at around 3m depth. As wife was elsewhere, she just thought we caught some larger wave and got some green water if front of boat. Having sail ON would be dangerous.

this filled me with very healthy respect for bars.

For monos this is not an issue. Muckle Fluga said monos fly over that due to inherent speed.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

How is it that we confuse speculation with reality, opinion with fact, bias for truth.
Basically there are currently very few pieces of genuine information.

So far there are two identifiable news articles (small local news outlets in Maroochydore and Gympie), but whether truth of otherwise, time will tell.
Media Reports.
1. Location: Wide Bay Bar
2. 11:30 pm
3. 12m Cat
4. "Over turned"
5. All safe after VMR vessel rescue with helicopter oversight using night vision equipment (night vision equipment being the thrust of one of the news stories).

Comment:
1. Although ex tropical cyclone Winston is approaching the SE Queensland Coast, it's impact last night was minor in local terms, being related to the established swell from events earlier in the week well off shore. Swell height last night at the Mooloolabah Wave rider Bouy was 2.5-3.0m. The pending Strong wind warning takes effect tomorrow as it nears the coast although tonight conditions are now building with all coastal beaches closed.
2. I have crossed Wide Bay Bar 18 or more times. I have headed out in calm conditions at night, but to enter at night would be foolhardy in the extreme especially with a 3m swell running easterly.
3. Last night's high tide was 2.0m at 22:27, so at least the crossing was reasonably well timed for the tide, admittedly one hour into the ebb.
4. New and updated waypoints provided by VMR Tin Can Bay differ from the charts (paper and electronic). At night it would be very easy to find oneself west of the correct path between WPT 1 and WPT 2 where it does get pretty shallow and surf frequently runs, especially with a 3m swell (plus, let's say a 0.5-1.0m sea). The wind last night was 15+ kts SES, being with the swell but against a early ebbing tide of only 2.0m.
5. On the correct track, there would have been 5-6m depth. Off track, west of the line as reflected in most charts, it may have been only 2.5m or even less with surf.
6. "Over turning" a 12m cat in these conditions, still seems difficult to understand. I can only imagine they began surfing, and either broached or grounded in the swell. This is conjecture however.
7. Unfortunately, we may never know what happened, as the media are good at announcing events, but are poor on the after-story unless there is a large readership. I suspect both the Maroochydore and Gympie local news outlets will not follow up on this event....
8 Very pleasing to hear all are well, but poor choices placed the VMR personnel in great danger, and sent a chopper 50NM from base at great cost to those that pay tax.

Any speculation on not being reefed enough? Surfing broaching and to much sail is a formula for disaster with a multihull.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

For monos this is not an issue. Muckle Fluga said monos fly over that due to inherent speed.

Yeah... German skipper said that to his pupils entering Fig... 30mins later he was dead.. along with one of the Policia Maritima who came out in a RIB to clean his mess..
Here's some Portuguese enjoying a calm day on the W coast..

https://www.facebook.com/boatman.phil

[wayne.b]

Originally Posted by tikirawker

lol!!
in my mind 50/50 it was a sandbar. Tampa Bay has more than its fair share...

and I am glad to see you don't know what a hole in the water is either. is it similar to a black hole? do i need to understand string theory??

===

Sandbar no doubt but quite different than anything in Tampa Bay, more like the shallows near the entrance to Big Sarasota Pass. The most notorious bar in the US is the Columbia River Bar on the west coast. There are lots of exciting YouTube videos from there if you Google them up.

Regarding a "hole in the water" that's more a matter of perspective than anything else. Think of it as the opposite of a wave. When you're at or near the top of a large wave, looking forward to the next, the trough in between looks very much like a hole in the water. If your speed is faster than the wave face, you will in fact drop into the hole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bfo3vqFvK0

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by wayne.b

Regarding a "hole in the water" that's more a matter of perspective than anything else. Think of it as the opposite of a wave. When you're at or near the top of a large wave, looking forward to the next, the trough in between looks very much like a hole in the water. If your speed is faster than the wave face, you will in fact drop into the hole.

not in my opinion. As I said 1 m swell. Wife was preparing some drinks so it looked tame for sure. What in my opinion happened are very long standing waves that go up and down around bar entry and may not be even noticed unless you are at the wrong spot at the wrong time. This hole formation was not moving, like waves. In my opinion just opens and closes in rhythm with standing waves that appear under certain conditions.

Speaking after with guy that entered 1/2 mile before me, he noticed nothing.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Yeah... German skipper said that to his pupils entering Fig... 30mins later he was dead.. along with one of the Policia Maritima who came out in a RIB to clean his mess..
Here's some Portuguese enjoying a calm day on the W coast..

https://www.facebook.com/boatman.phil

i guess wrong attitude kills many.

link does not work looks like. or do i have to be facebook-ed ?

[salticrak]

Originally Posted by boatman61

WooHoo... that looks fun..
We get the same problem every year down the coast of W Portugal.
Apart from Sines, LisbonCascais and Leixois.. all the ports are on rivers and when the dominant NW swell is up the bars are a death trap.. even Lisbon gets closed on occasion.
Figueira da Foz claims lives annually almost.. Vianna do Castello is another..
The Tiki 26 I delivered to Esposende was the same.. surfed over the bar which one can walk over at low water on a 2+ metre breaking wave.. get it wrong and you crash into the breakwater as no sooner have you crossed.. but still in the surf there's a sharp dogleg to the right to get up river to the marina.
Totally gutted as the owner who was standing on the breakwater to watch me bring his baby in took no photo's.. when I asked he said that my dramatic entry just left him open mouthed with thoughts of pic's wiped out of his mind..
All he could do was go 'Merde.. MERDE..!!

Well this makes my heart sing.Good work B. One day when I eventually launch my tiki 26 I am sure I will be taking her up the inside of Fraser Island and over the bar.
My boat has a puny 6hp and sails of course. Is it all motoring thru that bar? I have travelled along the Fraser Island shore enough times to have a deep respect for that bar.It looks gnarly from the shore,the massive volume of water that goes thru there is a sight to behold.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by salticrak

Well this makes my heart sing.Good work B. One day when I eventually launch my tiki 26 I am sure I will be taking her up the inside of Fraser Island and over the bar.
My boat has a puny 6hp and sails of course. Is it all motoring thru that bar? I have travelled along the Fraser Island shore enough times to have a deep respect for that bar.It looks gnarly from the shore,the massive volume of water that goes thru there is a sight to behold.

Went in with the 6hp OB working.. no sail.. last thing I wanted was a gust changing my angle even slightly.. else it would have gone downhill fast.. and no recovery.

[timbenner]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

I am of another opinion. People who decide to go to sea in obviously unseaworthy vessels should not be rescued. They should be left to their fate.

Paul

And would you be the one to define "unseaworthy"??

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by timbenner

And would you be the one to define "unseaworthy"??

HA ! Now you threw cat heaters a bone they were waiting for

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

HA ! Now you threw cat heaters a bone they were waiting for

No I don't think it has anything to due with numbers or types of hulls.

Quite a few brought up that the old guys that had many "rescues" boat should be inspected for seaworthiness before they should be allowed to go on, so it is not a topic that has not been brought up on this forum before.
But who does make that determination?

I don't like the idea myself, but there is precedence, try driving an automobile in the US without a seatbelt on and see what happens?

On edit, I believe the US Coast Guard can and has declared a voyage manifestly unsafe, and require the boat be abandoned for instance?