buying new vs used

[muskoka]

Today, a 6-7 year old Island Spirit will sell for about $200K. The fact that someone purchased a 3 year old IS for $164K and sold for $205K sound's like this was a 'project' boat? More project than boat, I'd say.

Anyway, the point is that your friend may have taken a bath for $40K on a lemon, BUT, the 'security' of new ownership sure didn't do the original owner much good - he sold his 3 year old boat for half of it's value and took a bath for about $160K.

PS - I don't think I was lucky. I hire a good surveyor, I've done this before, and I look for very, very lightly used boats.

[The_Bean]

Originally Posted by Limpet

Did your friend make the repairs himself? Based on what he spent, ......

He indeed did do all the repairs himself... and that is the scary part.

[The_Bean]

Originally Posted by muskoka

Today, a 6-7 year old Island Spirit will sell for about $200K. The fact that someone purchased a 3 year old IS for $164K and sold for $205K sound's like this was a 'project' boat? More project than boat, I'd say.

Anyway, the point is that your friend may have taken a bath for $40K on a lemon, BUT, the 'security' of new ownership sure didn't do the original owner much good - he sold his 3 year old boat for half of it's value and took a bath for about $160K.

PS - I don't think I was lucky. I hire a good surveyor, I've done this before, and I look for very, very lightly used boats.

The original owner had passed away in a motor vehicle accident and his wife sold it through a broker as well maintained and hardly used. She apparently had no interest in the boat. The boat was certainly not purchased as a project boat. The intention was to go sailing.
The problem was that he only later found out the fact that the previous owner had passed on and that the boat had in fact been standing for almost 2 and a half years while the estate was sorted out. The surveyor was a good one.... but **** happens. The boat was "clean" "hardly used" and that was the problem. It would appear that it was "cleaned up" for the sale. Things deteriorate far quicker when they have not been used for a long period. Sometimes you cannot see this on the surface... it just bites you later. I mention that you should at least need to know the owner of the boat or it's history, as the above is something that you would not know when buying a "strange" boat.

[schoonerdog]

I saw the repair list of things that went wrong with a brand new island spirit on it's initial delivery. Engine failure due to no antisiphon loops on the exhaust system, the settee table completely ripped away for the jolt of a bad wave, the list went on for several pages...I'd never seen a list like that on a new boat. Friends on a brand new catana had to sue the factory to replace their settee windows were starting to come out and then found bulkhead delamination and again had the factory refuse to help. On the other hand, our first PDQ 36 we purchased 7 years old, the factory sent new stanchions when we bent ours before we even could pay them, they sent emergency tiller ports and tiller for free when they found out we didn't have it, they bent over backwards even though our boat never had any warrantee. That's why I'd personally be far more concerned having a new boat from an unstable or unresponsive manufacturer than a used boat from a great one. Of course, a new boat from a great builder is a wonderful thing. PDQ has a mobile motor home with two fulltime engineers that drive all around the United States and Canada repairing peoples boats at their own docks which are under warrentee. A mechanic that comes to you, that's customer service!!! And the guys doing it have been with PDQ for a very long time, it takes a great company to retain talent.

[Tropic Cat]

Here's an aspect no one has mentioned yet. Most Multihulls are maufactured outside of the USA. I'm well aware of the notable US manufacturers but they are but a small percentage of world production of Catamarans.

The US dollar has been taking a hit in international markets. It now costs more US Dollars to buy the same French or South African boat than it did a year ago and up to 30% more than 3 years ago, even if the manufacturers' European price held rock steady over the same time period.

If the concensus here is that these Cats are depreciating at 5% per year when compared to a 2007 new boat pricing .... wouldn't it follow that they are now selling for more than they did when new? Now there's an interesting concept.... the appreciating boat purchase!!

Just a thought

Rick in Florida

[sail2wind]

Schoonerdog, I sailed with the owner of the Honey Cat a brand new Island Spirit 39. The owner got hosed by Fortuna, he even went to S. Africa. The boat came in over a year late, paid for and never recieved: generator, dinghy, motor, SS cup holders, anchor line, fenders, and the list went on. The settee table was a foot shorter, because the base collapsed. The freezer did not work, the A/C unit had so much condensation, there was 6" of water under the lounge chair in the salon where the inverter was installed. The window from the salon to the cockpit constantly leaked a redish colored liquid. When I was diving I rubbed the hull with my dive glove and it turned solid blue. A year later a friend chartered the Honey Cat and said there was 6" of grass growing on the hull. I think they used Sherwin Williams for their hull paint. In Island Spirit's defense, they are fast, handle well, and a nicely laid out interior. Capt. Mike Kneafsey who owns the Aristacat in BVI has nothing but good things to say about his Island Spirit.

Evan

[schoonerdog]

I think it becomes demand vs supply. Many catamarans are aimed at charters. At the annapolis boat show a broker was talking about how he could sell the Lagoon at about for 1/2 the purchase price after the 5 year charter period was over. So even though there's a definite appreciation of the boats due to exchange rate in US currency, due to the real estate market going south and tighter lending practices and a over supply of boats going from charter these all combine to keep prices pretty low for a 5 year old charter boat. In 2000 our currency was near an alltime high and a 2000 lagoon 410 sells for about half of the price of a new one, despite the price being higher.

Originally Posted by rickm505

Here's an aspect no one has mentioned yet. Most Multihulls are maufactured outside of the USA. I'm well aware of the notable US manufacturers but they are but a small percentage of world production of Catamarans.

The US dollar has been taking a hit in international markets. It now costs more US Dollars to buy the same French or South African boat than it did a year ago and up to 30% more than 3 years ago, even if the manufacturers' European price held rock steady over the same time period.

If the concensus here is that these Cats are depreciating at 5% per year when compared to a 2007 new boat pricing .... wouldn't it follow that they are now selling for more than they did when new? Now there's an interesting concept.... the appreciating boat purchase!!

Just a thought

Rick in Florida

[schoonerdog]

That's a real horror story!!!

Originally Posted by sail2wind

Schoonerdog, I sailed with the owner of the Honey Cat a brand new Island Spirit 39. The owner got hosed by Fortuna, he even went to S. Africa. The boat came in over a year late, paid for and never recieved: generator, dinghy, motor, SS cup holders, anchor line, fenders, and the list went on. The settee table was a foot shorter, because the base collapsed. The freezer did not work, the A/C unit had so much condensation, there was 6" of water under the lounge chair in the salon where the inverter was installed. The window from the salon to the cockpit constantly leaked a redish colored liquid. When I was diving I rubbed the hull with my dive glove and it turned solid blue. A year later a friend chartered the Honey Cat and said there was 6" of grass growing on the hull. I think they used Sherwin Williams for their hull paint. In Island Spirit's defense, they are fast, handle well, and a nicely laid out interior. Capt. Mike Kneafsey who owns the Aristacat in BVI has nothing but good things to say about his Island Spirit.

Evan

[Intentional Drifter]

According to a news article on the Catco site, Fortuna went out of business. The current Island Spirit model is supposedly going to be taken over by Admiral and added to their range.

They also found that Charter Cats, the maker of the rather infamous Wildcat and Jaguar, was also out of business.

There was also a recent article in Multihulls about a couple having a boat built in SA -- talking about the problems involved in building a boat there.

This is not to diss S. Africa, or S. African boats, please don't take it that way. But, it surely gives some warnings about looking for "good deals" in places where hands on supervision and owner involvement may be difficult and where political and economic stability is shakey. Plus, of course, less than scrupulously ethical businesses are always to be avoided, no matter where they are located.

ID

[sail2wind]

Fortuna was at the Miami Boat show in February.

[schoonerdog]

Produce a bad product and word spreads really quickly. Admiral has a pretty good reputation, so it's good to hear it's changing hands. I think that the boating industry is in for another repeat of the early 90s, which ultimately is a good thing as it will weed out all of the weaker companies.

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

According to a news article on the Catco site, Fortuna went out of business. The current Island Spirit model is supposedly going to be taken over by Admiral and added to their range.

They also found that Charter Cats, the maker of the rather infamous Wildcat and Jaguar, was also out of business.

There was also a recent article in Multihulls about a couple having a boat built in SA -- talking about the problems involved in building a boat there.

This is not to diss S. Africa, or S. African boats, please don't take it that way. But, it surely gives some warnings about looking for "good deals" in places where hands on supervision and owner involvement may be difficult and where political and economic stability is shakey. Plus, of course, less than scrupulously ethical businesses are always to be avoided, no matter where they are located.

ID

[rtbates]

2 or 3 years old IS new. Or newer than any boat I've ever bought. With the life expectance of FG boats buying new or ONLY 2-3 yo is a BIG waste of money. I have a 23 yo Cape Dory, bought when it was only 18 yo. With the difference in money I can do lots of things, like spend years sailing instead of working.

Market sales wonks are pretty convincing aren't they.

[Tropic Cat]

Schoonerdog,

I see your point. My next question would be ... how much did a brand new 2000 lagoon 410 cost?

Rick in Florida

[Intentional Drifter]

Since many of us are U.S. folks, we must also keep in mind the changing fortunes of the US dollar vs other currency exchange rates. For example, on 6/1/01, the rate was definitely in favor of the dollar, getting 1.18 euros per dollar. Currently, the rate is very different, with each dollar buying only .74 euro. That it is a huge turnaround, with the dollar losing almost half of the value against the euro. Therefore, based only on that, a French boat that would have kept a constant price in euros would be almost twice as expensive in dollars, today.

Although the situation is not quite so extreme against the SA rand, ($1 US = 8.04 SA rand in 6/01, versus 7.08 rand in 6/07), since the SA companies buy many of their components from Europe, their costs in terms of rand vs euro exchange rate has climbed at a similar rate. So, their prices have to increase, too.

Then, we have to add the price of oil, being the raw ingredient for much of what makes a boat. In 2001, the price of oil was still under $30/barrel. Now, north of $60 for most of the last 18 months.

It is no surprise to me that new boats cost so much. If there were more USA builders offering a competitive product (at least in the multihull market), they would be in a good position to gain market share.

Right now, I would say that a used boat, at least if paid for with dollars, would be the better way to go.

ID

[BambooSailor]

That it is a huge turnaround, with the dollar losing almost half of the value against the euro. Therefore, based only on that, a French boat that would have kept a constant price in euros would be almost twice as expensive in dollars, today.

That seems to be the case with Catanas. In 2002 I looked at getting new Catana 471 for special boatshow price of $480K (but I was overruled by my better half). The same boat is listed now for $670k.