BALI 4.0 experience - weak points, problems?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Piscis

Thanks to all responds so far!


The boat will be used as liveaboard. We are no racers and we have many interests on doing things on and in the water.



We are aware that every boat is a compromise, and we have our priorities. Livebility is more important for us than maximum sailing performance. Small sails and high weight surely means less performance.

But it does also means less stress on the rigging, less chance of capsizing and lower costs when replacing sails... For everything there is a pro and a con i guess.


I wouldnt consider IKEA quality/style a "no go". Acctually i bought an IKEA kitchen new about 17 years ago, and it is still in great shape and all appliances are working fine. Just a question of care and maintanance. Adjusting hinges would not be of concern for me when buying a boat out of charter - it just needs a screwdriver...



Comparing the interior of all cats we did charter so far, the Nautitech Open 40 showed the worst wear and tear. Buy hey, maybe it just had bad charter crews abusing it...
Baseline interior quality, i could not see big difference on all the vessels we chartered. Well the Lagoon 40 was almost brand new, so it did look a bit more pristine. But that might change after reckless charter group abuse.


I can make many things on that boat looking nice again. But i cannot make a BALI out of a Gemmini... no offense though!



Thanks again for your comments. Looking forward getting some more information of serious issues that boats showed after a couple of years charter abuse...



John

Gotta disagree with less stress on rigging and cost to replace sails. The performance cat will be sailing with way less sail area than the typical “condo” cat to maintain the same speeds, thus less stress on both rigging and less wear on the sails. Also means less stress on the sail handling equipment, (blocks, lines, winches etc.) and more importantly less stress on the crew as they are handling less loads.
For example we were sailing on a broad reach a few days ago in 8-12 kts. of wind and were going maybe 2 kts faster than a Lagoon 38. Amazing thing is we had full main and 110% working jib up and they had full main and spinnaker up. I’m guessing they had close to double the sail area, so which boat was under more stress?

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Factor

Recognise that it will not sail to windward - at all - in any sort of sea state.

Not sure I believe it's that bad, but my big problem when I looked at them, is that you must exit the cockpit and hang onto a railing outside any shelter from seas and weather, just to get to the helm station. How could any sane designer come up with that?

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by smj

Gotta disagree with less stress on rigging and cost to replace sails. The performance cat will be sailing with way less sail area than the typical “condo” cat to maintain the same speeds, thus less stress on both rigging and less wear on the sails. Also means less stress on the sail handling equipment, (blocks, lines, winches etc.) and more importantly less stress on the crew as they are handling less loads.
For example we were sailing on a broad reach a few days ago in 8-12 kts. of wind and were going maybe 2 kts faster than a Lagoon 38. Amazing thing is we had full main and 110% working jib up and they had full main and spinnaker up. I’m guessing they had close to double the sail area, so which boat was under more stress?

I understand what you are saying. But i am not trying to rig up a floating condo to do same speed as a racer - that will do lots of stress to the rig, no questions about that!

All i am saying is that a smaller sail and a heavier boat will result in less performance. But a smaller sail will cost less to replace than a bigger sail. And a smaller sail will put less stress on the rig, because there is less force it transmits to the rig. Sure, it will be slower, and sure, it will be very difficult to rig up a condo to get close to racer cat performance. But thats not what i was talking about...


The BALI is not made to win races. It is a very comfortable Liveaboard cat, which fits most of our requirements.

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Not sure I believe it's that bad, but my big problem when I looked at them, is that you must exit the cockpit and hang onto a railing outside any shelter from seas and weather, just to get to the helm station. How could any sane designer come up with that?

Compromise... You now that it is.


We once sailed on a Nautitech Open 40 with the exposed helms...in heavy weather... How could any sane designer come up with that?


We did evaluate and tested most of the popular production cats in the past years. And, even in a perfect world, there is not "the" boat that meets all possible requirements for every buyer.



Compromise... we have to take

[John_char]

Please keep us up to date. I would love to see what you get and you’re refit story. [emoji106]

[Piscis]

Promised!

I am planning my trip at this time. Acctually there are three vessels i will have a look at. Two BALI and one Lucia 40. The BALI i am mentioning here is the most promissing one. All depends about its conditions and if the Owner and i will find a price suitable for both of us. At the moment we are close....

[TheOffice]

Just chartered a 4.5 flybridge. Inadequate handholds, mast track was spilling ball bearings, toilets could not handle toilet paper, small stove and cooktop. Original fridge had been replaced with a household fridge.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Factor

Recognise that it will not sail to windward - at all - in any sort of sea state.

One anchored near us now
It couldn't even sail down hill or across the breeze yesterday with 20 to 25 knots of wind and flat water.
Motoring all the way

Far better motor boats can be had for much less money

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by Piscis

I am planning to purchase a BALI 4.0 from the Owner.

To all the BALI Owners or anybody who have experience with that vessel... What are the week points i should take special attention to? What kind of problems did you, as an owner or extensive charter captain, encounter during the time you have been sailing and using that Catamaran?.......

This thread should focus on issues i can find while having a look at the vessel without surveyor assistance.

John

It's pretty obvious that you have already decided on a Bali 4.0 despite the advice you are getting from "BALI Owners or anybody who have experience with that vessel". The responses cover a variety of issues including poor build quality, restricted performance, questionable durability and design flaws affecting crew and vessel safety. You maintain that these things are less important to you than a comfortable living space. However they are critical issues for experienced mariners who realize that getting the boat to a destination safely and dependably is of paramount importance.

For the record, production cruising catamarans by whatever manufacturer are not built for "racing performance". They are ALL built for comfort but the better and safer ones have enough design speed and handling chartacteristics to assist you in dicey and demanding situations. I would hesitate to buy any sail boat whose capability while under sail was as limited as noted by responses to your post.

It is not uncommon to fail in love with a boat and then rationalize her shortcomings. We have all been there, as numerous threads on this forum testify. It is often akin to having that fourth round of drinks with your friends: seems like the perfect thing to do at the time until you wake up the next morning and realize you promised the boss you would come in on Saturday to finish up that big project.

It all comes down to balancing Love and Reason. I wish you all the best.

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by Nani Kai

It's pretty obvious that you have already decided on a Bali 4.0 despite the advice you are getting from "BALI Owners or anybody who have experience with that vessel". The responses cover a variety of issues including poor build quality, restricted performance, questionable durability and design flaws affecting crew and vessel safety. You maintain that these things are less important to you than a comfortable living space. However they are critical issues for experienced mariners who realize that getting the boat to a destination safely and dependably is of paramount importance.

For the record, production cruising catamarans by whatever manufacturer are not built for "racing performance". They are ALL built for comfort but the better and safer ones have enough design speed and handling chartacteristics to assist you in dicey and demanding situations. I would hesitate to buy any sail boat whose capability while under sail was as limited as noted by responses to your post.

It is not uncommon to fail in love with a boat and then rationalize her shortcomings. We have all been there, as numerous threads on this forum testify. It is often akin to having that fourth round of drinks with your friends: seems like the perfect thing to do at the time until you wake up the next morning and realize you promised the boss you would come in on Saturday to finish up that big project.

It all comes down to balancing Love and Reason. I wish you all the best.

The best post in this thread. I hope for his sake that the OP reads it carefully.

[Piscis]

Originally Posted by Nani Kai

It's pretty obvious that you have already decided on a Bali 4.0 despite the advice you are getting from "BALI Owners or anybody who have experience with that vessel". The responses cover a variety of issues including poor build quality, restricted performance, questionable durability and design flaws affecting crew and vessel safety. You maintain that these things are less important to you than a comfortable living space. However they are critical issues for experienced mariners who realize that getting the boat to a destination safely and dependably is of paramount importance.

For the record, production cruising catamarans by whatever manufacturer are not built for "racing performance". They are ALL built for comfort but the better and safer ones have enough design speed and handling chartacteristics to assist you in dicey and demanding situations. I would hesitate to buy any sail boat whose capability while under sail was as limited as noted by responses to your post.

It is not uncommon to fail in love with a boat and then rationalize her shortcomings. We have all been there, as numerous threads on this forum testify. It is often akin to having that fourth round of drinks with your friends: seems like the perfect thing to do at the time until you wake up the next morning and realize you promised the boss you would come in on Saturday to finish up that big project.

It all comes down to balancing Love and Reason. I wish you all the best.

Thanks a lot for your comment, i really do appreciate!

Well, i did not decide for the Bali yet. I will have three appointments on that trip (2 Bali, 1FP Lucia), plus additionally, i just made an offer for a Leopard 40. So i am still open and not biased.

As mentioned a couple of times already, i did sail the Bali 4.0 already. I do not agree with most of the comments made, that this vessel does not sail at all. However, i really dont want to start discussing about the sailing ability of that vessel. So i leave that statements without commenting...

Until now, i do not get any answer from an owner of such a catamaran, which i was mainly addressing.

Worn out interior...well, i see that on all 6 year old boats out of charter. I am expecting that acctually. But this is not of my primary concern and those issues are easy to identify when visiting the boats...

My question was more to owners and users with lots of miles under their buds and finding issues they think would be worth taking an extra look at when inspecting a vessel.

I may ask you how many miles you sailed a Bali 4.0? What issues did you encounter and how did you find its sailing abilities?

I have to say that i realized for a long time that the Bali did not get many possitive comments in this forum. Asking real and confirmed owners, the story sounds a little bit different...


Thanks again,

John

[boatman61]

Had a contract to do an owner assist of a new Bali 4.5 from Barcelona to Puerto Rico.. everything was great till we got to Almerimar and stopped for the night.
I checked the weather and the forecast was SW 15 to 20kts, knowing what the Med tended to do with that forecast I advised staying another night, the owner saw flat sea's and flat winds said "No, we go on.."
I shrugged, hid a grin and started casting off.. by the time we were S of Malaga the wind had swung W gusting 30kts 1.5/2m sea and she was slamming her guts out.
He called it off in Gib and booked a berth on a cargo boat to take it across the Atlantic.
That solid foredeck is not head sea friendly though she sailed well enough upto 70* to the wind.

[Piscis]

Lol. Thanks!

BTW, i would never throw toilett paper in any marine head....

[donradcliffe]

A couple of months before this thread was started, I walked by a Bali at the dock and had to come back and take a picture so I could show people what catamaran NOT to buy.

It will be OK as a floating condo if you never leave the dock. What caught my eye was how far the boom and the steering station were off the water. Reading the reviews and looking at the interior just reinforced my conclusion that the boat was never intended to go to sea.

You will seriously injure yourself if the inadequate handholds cause you to fall into one of the square Ikea cabinet corners, or fall off the boat completely from 12 feet up trying to tie in a reef.

[Bullshooter]

Not an owner, I only chartered one once, and we had a great vacation. It was on the Dalmation coast and the "garage door" made the living area very comfortable with the salon open to the cockpit. It was a new 4.0, and I can see why you find it appealing. Negatives: As stated, pointing to windward was not very good; One bilge pump had some problem with an optical sensor for the auto switch, and I found myself cleaning the lens a couple times on a new boat. The seating area in the bow, with large windows connecting it to the galley/salon area was great for passing drinks or snacks up and socializing up there, but the design did not seem robust enough for ocean passages; (We also had an engine problem that we were told was related to us misusing the climate control in some way, but this issue was likely due to a language barrier during the briefing, and was quickly corrected by the charterer's mechanic, out on the water.)

As you said, compromises. You plan to liveaboard, but do you plan to do more local sailing or ocean passages/circumnavigating? I think you are right to gather any info you can from owners, maybe look up polar diagrams for what they are worth. Sorry I had just the limited experience with a Bali but figured it wouldn't hurt to post.