Wooden Hulls

[CapsizedVeteran]

I know this topic has been beaten to death so please don't be too harsh on me. My wife an I are currently in the market for our first sailboat. We've recently came across a boat that is very special and that we think would be a perfect fit for us, the kicker is that it is of wood construction. Normally I wouldn't even consider a wooden boat but this particular one appears to have been built very well and fiberglass/epoxy sealed from the very beginning. While the original builder passed away I do have a paragraph that he wrote about the hulls construction. I would love for someone more educated than myself on the topic to read over it and give me their honest opinion. The boat is in very good condition and has definitely been deeply loved throughout it's lifetime. Here is what the original builder said:

As a builder in love with wood, creating our future craft in wood was the only material I felt comfortable with. In considering the type of planking, I concluded that cold-molded assured us being the lightest but strongest hull sheeting, outside of metal. In this type of construction, the scantlings are bend over a "network" of longitudinal stringers spaced appropriately. Now, these individual stringers are potential water traps and cause rot. A much better solution is strip-planking the first layer. The advantage is a smooth inner hull, and a good foundation to fasten the diagonals--the second layer. As a bonding agent between layers we used epoxy glue and monel ring-nails as fasteners throughout. The third layer is carvel, why? Because no matter how careful the outer layer is finished, the normal contraction and expansion of wood will show under certain light condition even through two layers of Vectra cloth, we put as final layers for additional strength, and guarding against water absorption and worms. Meaning to say that carvel appearance is more the natural print and less obtrusive. Also, having strip planking as the inner layer, the outer layer of carvel makes matching seems less likely. To make absolutely certain there will not be any moisture penetration, we bonded the last layer with polysulphide to one foot above the waterline. The thickness of the individual layers are: Strip planking 1-1/8", diagonals 1/4", carvel 3/8" There are 10 full or partial bulkheads. One thing about Vectra cloth it is very strong, and compared to fiberglass superior in strength and abrasion resistance. It is perfectly alright to use polyester resin for bonding, but the real advantage of Vectra is gained by using epoxy resin. Because polyester brittles with time whereas epoxy retains elasticity. We don't have a single failure after 26 years. But nothing is perfect. Vectra is a "bitch" to finish; and can only be accomplished by way of careful sanding. Because, once a mechanical sander hits the cloth it sort of melts and fusses and the only way to repair it is by applying more epoxy filler. In short, from the outset, the hull should be pasted with a thick layer of fairing compound, epoxy in our case, in order to have enough "meat" to prevent cut-ins. The hull was built upside down, therefore provided the huge advantage not having to "pump iron" (sanding overhead). This type of hull construction is labor intensive, and building up-side-down is the only way to lighten the load significantly. Nice would be a roller contraption used primarily in steel construction, that would facilitate easy building and handling of the hull immensely. But, like everything else in life, there are trade-offs; and in boat building particularly so.

Am I crazy for considering this boat?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by CapsizedVeteran

I know this topic has been beaten to death so please don't be too harsh on me. My wife an I are currently in the market for our first sailboat. We've recently came across a boat that is very special and that we think would be a perfect fit for us, the kicker is that it is of wood construction. Normally I wouldn't even consider a wooden boat but this particular one appears to have been built very well and fiberglass/epoxy sealed from the very beginning. While the original builder passed away I do have a paragraph that he wrote about the hulls construction. I would love for someone more educated than myself on the topic to read over it and give me their honest opinion. The boat is in very good condition and has definitely been deeply loved throughout it's lifetime. Here is what the original builder said:



Am I crazy for considering this boat?

"Cold molded" is ten levels above 'glass over wood' ... a different animal altogether and a method used by high end boats like Spencer Rybovich.
Do some research on "cold molded"

[CapsizedVeteran]

You're of course absolutely correct and I didn't mean to make it sound like someone just slapped some glass over an old wooden boat, thanks for catching that. It's the fact that it has been sealed since new that I am mostly unfamiliar with.

Originally Posted by boatpoker

"Cold molded" is ten levels above 'glass over wood' ... a different animal altogether and a method used by high end boats like Spencer Rybovich.
Do some research on "cold molded"

[Benz]

The problem with home-built cold molded boats is unless you know what to look for, there's no telling what the build quality was. Best sea boat I ever sailed on was cold-molded, but it had been built by a great craftsman. This boat could have been so as well, but you'd have to get a surveyor who knew his stuff to figure that out.
I'm a little concerced about "Vectra." Does he mean Vectran? That's not commonly used as a boat skin material, (Kevlar is far more common), but both have issues with UV degradation, and not every coating keeps out 100% of UV.
I'd get a surveyor who really knows his way around cold-molded boats to weigh in.

[smj]

Plenty of owners out there love their polyester over balsa cored boats. What your looking at is many levels above.

[LakeSuperior]

A most common affliction of home builders is to overbuild. Translation, build heavy. The hull as described is nearly 2 inches thick of wood.

Was the strip planked inner layer edge glued and edge nailed?

What wood species was used for the planking?

What is the length and beam?

[psk125]

A quick read of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction" might help allay any concerns you have about "wooden boats" built this way. https://www.westsystem.com/the-gouge...-construction/ Water intrusion (it's a BOAT- there WILL be water intrusion) is the question here, partly because the boat is at least 26 years old. Water may or may not have gotten through the hull, but there may be places in the deck where fittings or hatches or coamings have opened seams and water has gotten in. A surveyor would be key in finding these sorts of problems if they exist and letting you know how involved it might be to fix them. With ten bulkheads or partial bulkheads, this sounds like a good-sized boat. What is it? Do you have pictures?

[deblen]

Some good reading: https://www.westsystem.com/the-gouge...-construction/


https://coveyisland.com/assets/0e0b7...8-Schooner.pdf

[Fore and Aft]

Capsized Veteran was the strip planking convex/concave or just butt jointed along the plank edge? Either way doesn't really matter but butt jointing along the plank edge usually requires some extra work to make them fit tight. The planks don't have to be perfect, but I have surveyed a Lylle Hess strip planked yacht that had some fairly large glue joins from incorrectly fitted planks. Was the inside of the hull finished with epoxy resin, in particular around the engine and bilge? Check around all the skin fittings for black timber as well as this indicates moisture is getting into the planking. I think the extra layer of fore and aft planking was a waste of time. I have surveyed similar constructed strip plank yachts that have a final layer of 900gm Triaxal fiberglass and there is no sign of plank print through after 20+ years.
I would say get a good surveyor and buy her if he thinks there are no problems.
Cheers

[Bowdrie]

Yeah, getting a survey from someone who really know about that type of construction is a good idea.
That said, yes, a well done cold-molded boat is exceptionally strong, and much more rigid than the typical fiberglass boat, (when headstay and backstay are tightened up the hull has a lot less bending).
They are also "quiet" inside, you don't feel as though you're in a drum.
As others have noted, many construction schemes have been employed, both as to the schedule of wood and various fastening methods.
I've been fortunate to examine several cold-molded boats of various sizes and methods, and all that were built with care were quite nice, with no one particular method having any great advantage, (assuming epoxy and quality wood was used, and the exterior is glassed).
One boat, (a 41' that I sailed on several times,) was built by a high-school wood shop teacher, he went a different route.
He used 4 layers of 5/16s mahogany all put together with "Thiokol", (a 2 part Polysulfide,) and copper rivets, not a drop ever leaked in.
Cold molding in some form is much used for very expensive one-off yachts of high standard.

[CapsizedVeteran]

Thanks to everyone that replied, you definitely reassured me that a quality cold molded boat is nothing to be scared of. Unfortunately I don't have answers to questions on the specifics of construction as the builder passed away a few years ago and I fear all those details went with him. I did find one mention of the hull being constructed of mahogany but that's all I could find.

I'll be flying out to look at the boat this weekend and should everything check out I intend to buy it. I'll be sure to share some more pictures once that happens!

[mako]

CV, not sure why you don't want to post the link - I doubt anyone on here is going to scoop it up behind your back.

Personally I agree with your conclusion, but in any case, it's still a wood boat, not a fiberglass one, and resale is affected. If you buy it low enough to take that into account, then no issues.

[smj]

Originally Posted by mako

CV, not sure why you don't want to post the link - I doubt anyone on here is going to scoop it up behind your back.

Personally I agree with your conclusion, but in any case, it's still a wood boat, not a fiberglass one, and resale is affected. If you buy it low enough to take that into account, then no issues.

Most sailboats, even of the highest quality are built of balsa wood core between a glass/polyester sheathing on each side. Would this be considered a wood boat, and if not, why?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by smj

Most sailboats, even of the highest quality are built of balsa wood core between a glass/polyester sheathing on each side. Would this be considered a wood boat, and if not, why?

This should be good.

[Glenn.Brooks]

As an wood boat owner for many years, my+1 recommendation is to find a very experienced WoodenBoat surveyor, and pay a lot of attention to what he or she will have to say.

At the risk of being to opinionated, I would say, unfortunately this boat has way to many red flags for my taste. The builder actually lost my interest when he described adding a third “caravel “ layer, bonded to the hull with polysulfide. Silly, Unnecessary and a likely point of failure. All wood hulls are designed to accommodate some level of moisture content. water penetration in wood hulls takes place at the molecular level. the air holds moisture, bilges are always wet and water molecules penetrate the hull constantly from the topside, inside and outside. None of the materials mentioned by the builder have a smaller molecule size than h20. So some form of osmosis occurs all the time. What the builder has essentially done with his third carvel layer is create a series of membranes that essentially entrain and trap moisture from escaping! A perfect condition for dry rot and glue separation. So it’s stilly to have down all that work to prevent water intrusion - and potentially destructive to the boat.

Also, More I think about it, no credible boat builder I’ve ever talked with would would lay up a boat hull this way… each method he mentioned is actually fine by itself. But all three methods Used together, will likely work in a dissimilar manner, e.g. he layers will work against each other, as the season changes and the boat moves through a seaway. Finally the carvel layer bonding material he mentioned sounds like a common form of seam sealer in use 30 years ago. It may not actually be an adhesive. If it is “boatlife” caulking compound or similar, It likely has a working life around 30 years or so. If so, it will eventually loose it’s physical properties and start to let loose. Hopefully, you won’t be the owner when that happens.

So might be a good move to just pass on it and spend time and money on something that was built in a proven and more appropriate manner. There are a lot of classic wood boats out there that are wonderful works of art and definitely worthy of a dedicated caretaker.