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Old 24-10-2022, 08:16   #31
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Nothing wrong with a wooden boat. The 137 year old smack in my avatar has just been rebuilt and good for another 100+ years. The trouble with multilayered wooden hulls is when you have a prang. They are the devil to repair well. If you are going to end up with a 2" thick hull why not just have 2" planking to start with. And if you really want to, you can strip plank her 2"x2"
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Old 24-10-2022, 09:24   #32
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Re: Wooden Hulls

See if you can buy the house too.

Whatever the present condition, you can be pretty sure the original builder was obsessive about the quality of materials and construction. She appears to have been a labour of love.

The admirable Germanic love of quality and craftsmanship has one or two inherent weaknesses IMHO: a tendency toward over-complication and a degree of intellectual arrogance giving rise to assumptions about design and material choices being "better" just because they are "ours" and "our way is always better" etc., etc.

That said, barring some such envelope-busting technical leap of self-confidence which didn't pan out, your odds of success and survival are surely much better in a boat built as a labour of love than one built to maximize profits this quarter.

Four Atlantic crossings should have proved something.
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Old 24-10-2022, 10:20   #33
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Re: Wooden Hulls

As above, I don't understand the addition of carvel planking on top of the cold-moulded hull. I've never heard of this and the use of glass cloth as well? It sound as though the builder didn't trust the cold-moulding method. Usually West sytem epoxy is used and the layers of laminate, often Western Red Cedar, are laid diagonally over the frame. I'd be wary as the builder has gone into more detail about maintenance than I'd consider necessary.
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Old 24-10-2022, 12:41   #34
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by ms.lau View Post
As above, I don't understand the addition of carvel planking on top of the cold-moulded hull. I've never heard of this and the use of glass cloth as well? It sound as though the builder didn't trust the cold-moulding method. Usually West sytem epoxy is used and the layers of laminate, often Western Red Cedar, are laid diagonally over the frame. I'd be wary as the builder has gone into more detail about maintenance than I'd consider necessary.
It's an "apples/oranges" thing.
That outside layer IS part of the CM hull, one could build a CM boat with 2 layers or 20 layers, the idea is a hull that will carry loading in more than one direction.
The fact that it is glued on in a fore-an-aft direction has no bearing upon the definition of CM.
Regarding the WEST system and the Gougeon Brothers.
One needs to remember that they started out as ice-boat builders who were searching for a way to make very lightweight structures with a "Cold" gluing method as opposed to the "Hot glue/autoclave" method that had been previously used for small light boats, (such as dingys).
The choice of Red Cedar was appropriate for that application, it's cheap, light, obtainable, bends easily, and takes glue and finish easily.
And it's still a good wood for a lightweight boat for all of the above reasons.
The choice of wood is far beyond Red Cedar, scores of species can be used.
"Why not just 2" planking"?
No matter the size/weight/type, a traditional planked boat is JUST A WICKER BASKET, with all its strength in only one direction, that's why they have a multitude of frames/floor timbers/aprons/keelsons/hanging knees/lodging knees, and sometimes even diagonal strapping, et all.
They need all that amount of structure to resist torsional and lateral loads, as well as having structure to take the fasteners necessary to secure thick planks. otherwise the planking over time starts to "weave", the planks move longitudinally over each other and compromise the caulking.
And, when it's all assembled it still only uses some cotton to keep the water out.
I know, I've spent some time every year for the past 6 years in some form of work on a 40' Colin Archer with 2-1/4" planking on frames that are 6x8 every 18", and in the engine room the frames are 6x10.
Traditional boats are wet boats, they must absorb water in order to swell the planking to compress the caulking for integrity.
Cold molded boats are DRY boats, and dry wood is much stronger than wet wood.
Outside fiberglass in epoxy provides a great moisture barrier and also provides a great surface for finish products, same with inside the hull.
An aside, the concept of "saturation" is a myth, any normal epoxy used for gluing/laminating/applying fiberglass will only penetrate to the first un-broken layer of cell structure.
Special "penetrating" products like "Smiths" will go deeper, but are not used for gluing, they do make for a good "hardened" surface for subsequent applications of other products, either for gluing or finish work, an excellent usage is as a "primer" under varnish on Teak.
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Old 24-10-2022, 21:56   #35
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Get it surveyed. Make sure they use a moisture meter, especially on the decks. No major issues, it's fine.

Personally, I'd be more concerned with the Mercedes deisel, as that engine is ancient now and parts on not readily avilable nor the expertise to maintain them. If the motor also gets a 'tick' budget to replac e it within a few years, and you'll be OK.

I didn't see any comments about the sails. have they also been replaced, or are they still the 1975 originals..??? Big bucks there if they are.

Seems like massive'y constructed. Built like the proverbial tank. Probably means it will be slow, especially in lighter airs, so check the light air sails if any....

But I second what others said about the OCD build quality. If the hull is built as well as the interior clearly is, it's been "well built".

As long as the hull moisture check is clear, go for it. Price seems reasonable, even for a 47-yr-old cold-moulded wooden boat.
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Old 25-10-2022, 01:41   #36
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Re: Wooden Hulls

As the relatively owner of a cold molded kauri triple planked 38' yacht built in Auckland in 1986 I was very interested in the builders description of the construction. It would be good to know what material the boat is built from, but not that relevant. The yacht I have has sailed around the Pacific. It doesn't move (as in twist). We have owned several production boats and the build quality is nothing like our 'timber' yacht. One, a Dufour 390 used to twist its hull on a mooring and the doors would fly open. Flimsy construction, paper thin hulls. Your yacht will be solid and yes some of the systems (water/electrics) may not be up to scratch, but it will take you anywhere. And as for weight? Wood is lighter and stronger than fibreglass (our 38 footer weighs 7 tons). Yes triple skinned is heavier than single, but it is way stronger. To build your boat today would be north of $700,000 assuming its 40 feet or longer. You are probably getting a bargain. And its bespoke - hand made - by a craftsman. Not in some giant caravan factory where they spit out ten yachts a day.
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Old 25-10-2022, 01:50   #37
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Re: Wooden Hulls

at $16,000 what are you worried about?
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Old 28-10-2022, 14:05   #38
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Thanks everyone for replying. I flew out to Virginia to look at the boat this week and as is all too common it was in far worse condition than the pictures or the description showed. I was told the decks needed a little tlc, when I got there you could have fallen through the deck over the v birth if you stepped a little too hard. The Sampson posts up front were totally rotted through where they went though the deck , you could have literally just picked it up and removed it from the boat. The wooden structure the chain plates were bolted to was rotted out. The inner layer of hull had lots of places with dry rot.

So needless to say I passed on that boat. The hunt continues!

As for the people questioning why it's not built like you would expect a cold molded boat to be, I'm pretty sure he built it before West came out with their published method. I could be wrong on that one though.

Buzzman, the Mercedes diesel engine in that boat is the same one used in the 240d and tons of other Mercedes vehicles. It's a super popular engine worldwide, especially outside the US. They even still make them in some countries. Sourcing certain marine parts for it might have been a little challenging but the engine itself is super common.
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Old 28-10-2022, 14:20   #39
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Re: Wooden Hulls

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Originally Posted by gordonhinds View Post
at $16,000 what are you worried about?
I think CapsizedVeteran just answered your question
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Old 28-10-2022, 16:10   #40
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by ms.lau View Post
As above, I don't understand the addition of carvel planking on top of the cold-moulded hull. I've never heard of this and the use of glass cloth as well? It sound as though the builder didn't trust the cold-moulding method. Usually West sytem epoxy is used and the layers of laminate, often Western Red Cedar, are laid diagonally over the frame. I'd be wary as the builder has gone into more detail about maintenance than I'd consider necessary.
Sometimes a last fore & aft layer of planking is put on for aesthetics. Some don't like the diagonal "look" of the finished planking finished bright (Many of Vic Carpenter's boats, for example.) Other times builders make the planking thicker so that interior framing can be made smaller or totally omitted. (Reuel Parker's boats are often like this.) There are many variations possible with cold-molded epoxy construction.

Sounds like leaks in the teak deck have caught up with this boat. Too bad.
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Old 28-10-2022, 19:45   #41
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Sadly, all to often this is the story with old wooden boats. You did the right thing to go look at it, and walk away. Lots to choose from out there!
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