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Old 18-10-2022, 20:17   #16
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Our boat is strip concave/convex western red cedar, epoxy and glass inside and out. It is very common for Americans to be terrified of timber boats. Forget them. Read A Unit of Water, A Unit of Time: Joel White's Last Boat, by Douglas Whynott. The book describes in detail the construction of a cold molded boat, as well as being a very human story.

Of course, it is wise to have a new to you boat surveyed, because one never knows what the boat has been through before you saw it, but modern construction timber boats are wonderful. I was a little scared of it at first, myself, but the construction is strong as an eggshell: it can be pierced, but casual bumps are not a problem, just like you can't crush an egg in one hand. Calling such boats "home built" is sort of damning with faint praise; someone with the skills to build such a boat is a shipwright, not a "home builder". And the joinery below decks can be amazing, too. Such builders can be superb craftsmen.

Our boat was built by a shipwright for his own family's use: a mobile calling card. This is not a day-worker sort of job: it is highly skilled and demanding labor.

Enjoy, and good on you for even considering it in the face of the anti-timber crowd's negative propaganda, with little experience.

Ann
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Old 18-10-2022, 20:36   #17
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks View Post
As an wood boat owner for many years, my+1 recommendation is to find a very experienced WoodenBoat surveyor, and pay a lot of attention to what he or she will have to say.

At the risk of being to opinionated, I would say, unfortunately this boat has way to many red flags for my taste. The builder actually lost my interest when he described adding a third “caravel “ layer, bonded to the hull with polysulfide. Silly, Unnecessary and a likely point of failure. All wood hulls are designed to accommodate some level of moisture content. water penetration in wood hulls takes place at the molecular level. the air holds moisture, bilges are always wet and water molecules penetrate the hull constantly from the topside, inside and outside. None of the materials mentioned by the builder have a smaller molecule size than h20. So some form of osmosis occurs all the time. What the builder has essentially done with his third carvel layer is create a series of membranes that essentially entrain and trap moisture from escaping! A perfect condition for dry rot and glue separation. So it’s stilly to have down all that work to prevent water intrusion - and potentially destructive to the boat.

Also, More I think about it, no credible boat builder I’ve ever talked with would would lay up a boat hull this way… each method he mentioned is actually fine by itself. But all three methods Used together, will likely work in a dissimilar manner, e.g. he layers will work against each other, as the season changes and the boat moves through a seaway. Finally the carvel layer bonding material he mentioned sounds like a common form of seam sealer in use 30 years ago. It may not actually be an adhesive. If it is “boatlife” caulking compound or similar, It likely has a working life around 30 years or so. If so, it will eventually loose it’s physical properties and start to let loose. Hopefully, you won’t be the owner when that happens.

So might be a good move to just pass on it and spend time and money on something that was built in a proven and more appropriate manner. There are a lot of classic wood boats out there that are wonderful works of art and definitely worthy of a dedicated caretaker.
You have made some very good points with the above statement! The builder may be a superb craftsman but hull design is non-conventional/experimental.
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Old 19-10-2022, 00:08   #18
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Re: Wooden Hulls

^ I'll not have to use up bandwidth re-quoting Glenn's post.
Most of it is similar to some of the stuff/articles that has been going on forever in wooden boat forums, and to a lesser degree in WoodenBoat magazine since the early days of publication.
The characterization is one of "Plank-on-Frame" vs "Glued Together", not unlike a "Which anchor should I buy", or "Ford vs Chevy", in which talk of the woods gonna get wet and bonds are gonna break, and the water mites are small enough to cruise between and thru the epoxy/rubber web before them.
We could add the "Woods gotta "breathe" stuff also.
That kind of argument tries to sweep aside decades of experience with a multitude of techniques, and fasteners, (Glue is a fastener,) that for the most part have proven quite successful.
No matter the technique, the end result is basically a monocoque structure of "Homemade Plywood".
As far as the "carvel" outside layer being "Silly", well, I'm sure there are a lot of NAs who could clear the record.
And if its "unnecessary", it sure makes a great easily repairable layer that can take a hit, (and it adds buoyancy).
You just can't condemn epoxy, polysulfide, and exterior fabric/epoxy sheathing out of hand, but a lot of "plank on frame" guys do.
There are some things to be considered in CM construction.
Lightweight race types are a favorite of CM, and in them mechanical fasteners are avoided wherever possible, more dependance is placed upon things like Ring Frames and large faying surfaces/generous radii, and sometimes a lot of stringers, (they greatly increase longitudinal stiffness without adding hull thickness/weight).
A CM for cruising can take advantage of increased hull thickness, (weight,) and mechanical fasteners, (more weight).
In most all boats, of whatever material, it's not usually the hull that leads to degrading problems, it's the water that's always trying to get in from a billion things fastened to the deck and cabin.
Keeping a clean/dry bilge is important, (just like steel or aluminum,)
The plank on frame guys have learned to accept wet wood and wet bilges.
And like always, the first line of defense is an un-broken layer of paint.
If you really like it, have someone that knows what they're about to look at it.
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Old 19-10-2022, 02:28   #19
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Current ride is a Nelson Marik 40 ft 1 ton class .cold moulded by the quilky brothers in Sydney australia in 1983 ,3 diagonal layers of 3/8 red cedar in epoxy topsides ,two more on the bottom ,complete deck is also cold moulded no stringers no frames 4 blkhds ,floors for keel bolts e beds of qld maple ,backbone and keels on also of maple ,no sheaving,no movement 5tons all up 2.7 in lead keel ,an oldie built wright.⛵️⚓️
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Old 19-10-2022, 05:59   #20
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Most sailboats, even of the highest quality are built of balsa wood core between a glass/polyester sheathing on each side. Would this be considered a wood boat, and if not, why?
O.K., I'll bite. Interesting question in the context. Here is a pedantic response.

You are really referring to the proper description of a cored laminate. Many sailboat hulls, probably most now in existence, are in fact solid fiberglass, not a cored composite. Most have cored decks. Some hulls are composites from the waterline up, or even the entire hull with the exception of some areas subject to greater stresses such as the bow, keel and rudder joints.

The fiberglass on either side of the balsa or PVC core is more than just a coating. In fact, it is the main structural element of a composite hull is fiberglass. The core simply makes it lighter and stiffer. The fiberglass is absolutely necessary; the core is not. The core itself would not work as a structure without the fiberglass; the fiberglass itself can work as a structure without the core.

Therefore, a composite boat hull is more properly referred to or described as a fiberglass boat.

I built a heavy-duty D4 dinghy out of plywood and fiberglass. I used lots of glass cloth and epoxy on either side of the plywood structure. It is arguably a fiberglass dinghy with a plywood core.

I could have built it much lighter D4 with only an epoxy coating on the plywood and joints filleted with thickened epoxy. It would arguably be a coated or reinforced plywood dinghy.
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Old 19-10-2022, 06:51   #21
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Re: Wooden Hulls

As I read the description of the hull build, is this actually a cold molded hull? I think of a could moulded hull as a hull built of thin wood strips, (little more than veneer thickness) that are fullly saturated in epoxy, essentially taking the place of the glass fiber in a GRP hull. Very little wood fiber is not saturated in epoxy. These hulls can be very strong, and tough and very light.

Maybe I am misunderstanding a poorly written description, but I read this as a layer of 1 1/8" planks, covered with 1/4 " and then a final layer of 3/8" planks, all epoxy glued together. Does that construction really have the advantages of a regular cold molded hull, or is it just another amateur's "better idea"
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Old 19-10-2022, 07:27   #22
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks View Post
As an wood boat owner for many years, my+1 recommendation is to find a very experienced WoodenBoat surveyor, and pay a lot of attention to what he or she will have to say.

At the risk of being to opinionated, I would say, unfortunately this boat has way to many red flags for my taste. The builder actually lost my interest when he described adding a third “caravel “ layer, bonded to the hull with polysulfide. Silly, Unnecessary and a likely point of failure. All wood hulls are designed to accommodate some level of moisture content. water penetration in wood hulls takes place at the molecular level. the air holds moisture, bilges are always wet and water molecules penetrate the hull constantly from the topside, inside and outside. None of the materials mentioned by the builder have a smaller molecule size than h20. So some form of osmosis occurs all the time. What the builder has essentially done with his third carvel layer is create a series of membranes that essentially entrain and trap moisture from escaping! A perfect condition for dry rot and glue separation. So it’s stilly to have down all that work to prevent water intrusion - and potentially destructive to the boat.

Also, More I think about it, no credible boat builder I’ve ever talked with would would lay up a boat hull this way… each method he mentioned is actually fine by itself. But all three methods Used together, will likely work in a dissimilar manner, e.g. he layers will work against each other, as the season changes and the boat moves through a seaway. Finally the carvel layer bonding material he mentioned sounds like a common form of seam sealer in use 30 years ago. It may not actually be an adhesive. If it is “boatlife” caulking compound or similar, It likely has a working life around 30 years or so. If so, it will eventually loose it’s physical properties and start to let loose. Hopefully, you won’t be the owner when that happens.

So might be a good move to just pass on it and spend time and money on something that was built in a proven and more appropriate manner. There are a lot of classic wood boats out there that are wonderful works of art and definitely worthy of a dedicated caretaker.
Thanks again to everyone that has replied. As both Glen and ItDepends pointed out this boat doesn't seem to be built like a standard cold molded boat would be, so is it even technically cold molded? I'm starting to think it's not. Anyway, here's the links for the boat. The website was put together by the owners before they passed away, and the ad written by the current owner is just one of their friends repeating what he's been told by them.

https://annapolis.craigslist.org/boa...546590729.html

https://heinzenker.tripod.com/photos_deck.htm
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Old 19-10-2022, 09:13   #23
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDepends View Post
As I read the description of the hull build, is this actually a cold molded hull? I think of a could moulded hull as a hull built of thin wood strips, (little more than veneer thickness) that are fullly saturated in epoxy, essentially taking the place of the glass fiber in a GRP hull. Very little wood fiber is not saturated in epoxy. These hulls can be very strong, and tough and very light.

Maybe I am misunderstanding a poorly written description, but I read this as a layer of 1 1/8" planks, covered with 1/4 " and then a final layer of 3/8" planks, all epoxy glued together. Does that construction really have the advantages of a regular cold molded hull, or is it just another amateur's "better idea"
The word "diagonals" is used, as in plural.
I read the schedule as:
1, Strip plank the hull with 1-1/8" wood.
2, Apply 2 diagonal layers of 1/4" wood.
3, Additional layer of 3/8ths wood running fore-an-aft.

While some may find issue with the 3rd layer being applied with Polysulfide as a fastening agent below the waterline/epoxy above, the schedule is actually a quite common procedure for hulls of that size, (if thicker than most).
The 1st layer, (strip planking,) gives a fair surface that is thick enough to accept the billions of metal fasteners.
Plastic staples and nails are often used by higher tech builds in order that the cutting edges of tools are not ruined during the fairing of the layers, but also that higher tech, (lighter,) builds do generally use more layers of a thinner stock, and the plastic fasteners will hold thin wood, being driven by pneumatic tools by the thousands, (the more layers of thinner stock that are used the more fairing that is required).
The description indicates that metal fasteners were used, (and would be needed in thicker stock,) and there is certainly no issue with that except that more labor and care needed.
Yes, it is "Cold Molded", and a perusal of decades of written material would show, (as I said before,) that the building schedule is and has been a well-accepted method for a long time, especially for a person working solo.
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Old 19-10-2022, 09:57   #24
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Re: Wooden Hulls

The link and listing seem to show quite a well-found vessel that should attract a buyer who is looking for a comfortable long-haul cruiser. As has been noted by others, water intrusion is the big unknown in a boat that is more than 50 years old. The teak decks are a likely source of that. The photos look good, but each of the hundreds (thousands?) of screws may be a leak. The ad mentions a few electronics, which at this point are likely to be relics: new navigation equipment will be needed. The wiring, likewise, is probably getting to be problematic, and will need re-doing. A good surveyor will be able to indicate whether the boat is sound and worth going after. If long-haul cruising is your goal, his fee and what he can teach you about the boat could be a good investment.
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Old 19-10-2022, 10:23   #25
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
The link and listing seem to show quite a well-found vessel that should attract a buyer who is looking for a comfortable long-haul cruiser. As has been noted by others, water intrusion is the big unknown in a boat that is more than 50 years old. The teak decks are a likely source of that. The photos look good, but each of the hundreds (thousands?) of screws may be a leak. The ad mentions a few electronics, which at this point are likely to be relics: new navigation equipment will be needed. The wiring, likewise, is probably getting to be problematic, and will need re-doing. A good surveyor will be able to indicate whether the boat is sound and worth going after. If long-haul cruising is your goal, his fee and what he can teach you about the boat could be a good investment.
It was definitely built to simple standards and the things like electronics will need to be totally updated. The price point does leave plenty of extra money in our boat budget to make those updates and repairs though. I'll be looking at it this Sunday and if I like it I will definitely be looking for a top quality wooden boat surveyor.

Does anyone know of any good wood boat surveyors in the Weems, VA area?
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Old 19-10-2022, 19:22   #26
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Re: Wooden Hulls

There are several marinas and boatyards near Weems: Carter's Creek Boathouse, Carter's Cove Marina, Regent Point... Call each of them and ask for several recommendations. When you start hearing the same surveyor's name repeatedly, that's a good place to start. (Hopefully he's not the only one around!)
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Old 19-10-2022, 21:49   #27
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Look for the closest wooden boat repair specialist and ask him for the name of a surveyor he respects. and check this out.
Choosing a Marine Surveyor & 10 questions to ask

Not much on wooden boats here but it may give you a clue on how to inspect the rest of the vessel yourself before spending $$$ on a surveyor.
Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection

Not wood specific but the techniques will give you a clue on what to look for on the hull or at least understand what the surveyor is saying about it.
Moisture Meter Mythology and Flir thermal imager
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Old 20-10-2022, 06:11   #28
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Re: Wooden Hulls

If it helps, I was contemplating the purchase of a classic boat about a year ago and I reached out to George Little, who is a marine surveyor who specializes in wooden vessels.

https://tamarackmarinesurveys.com/

I only spoke to him on the phone (the purchase of that boat did not go through) but he seemed very knowledgeable about wooden boats. If he is too far away from you, he might be able to refer you to a colleague who is closer.
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Old 20-10-2022, 11:16   #29
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Re: Wooden Hulls

Indeed, your links show a very high level of craftsmanship. You may have found yourself a real gem. And the price is very reasonable. Hopefully your surveyor will give the boat a thumbs up!

I re read the builders statement and see the outer carvel layer is merely a finish coat- 3/8” thick stock, and not structural. At first I thought this might be a third structural layer, difficult and costly to repair. But the actual thickness and attachment methods very likely won’t affect the integrity of the hull either way. As others have recommended, Find an experienced wood surveyor to be sure…

You might ask your surveyor to determine somehow if the strip plank layer was made with traditional concave/convex shaped planks, edge nailed and glued. The arched joint between each plank is a tremendously effective surface. This will be a significantly stronger and longer lasting hull than flat edged stacked planks. Bill Lapworth specialized in this form of strip plank design and building in the 1960’s. His Lapworth 36 and L-40’s are still going strong.

Hope this works out for you!
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Old 24-10-2022, 07:54   #30
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Re: Wooden Hulls

My greatest fear isn't the hull, it is the teak decking. Unlike a well maintained hull, teak decks do not last forever.

This said, the vessel looks priced right so that I would personally consider the eventual replacement of the teak deck with fiberglass as one of the prices to pay.

Read this thread.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ss-213934.html
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