Where do self builders in steel and serious offshore cruisers hang out?

[europaflyer]

Great looking hull, and full-width coachroof looks like a sound idea. Always good to see a new yachtbuilder in the UK. However, I fear there may be a lot of potential customers put off by the wooden gaff rig (myself included). Would you consider a modern cutter rig? With an apparently moderate displacement for a full-keel steel yacht of her size, a more efficient rig would be an attractive option to a lot of people I think...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Great looking hull, and full-width coachroof looks like a sound idea. Always good to see a new yachtbuilder in the UK. However, I fear there may be a lot of potential customers put off by the wooden gaff rig (myself included). Would you consider a modern cutter rig? With an apparently moderate displacement for a full-keel steel yacht of her size, a more efficient rig would be an attractive option to a lot of people I think...

That's why the UK car/m'bike industry died... tradition is a big thing to Brit's...




PS; no malicious intent guys...

[atoll]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Great looking hull, and full-width coachroof looks like a sound idea. Always good to see a new yachtbuilder in the UK. However, I fear there may be a lot of potential customers put off by the wooden gaff rig (myself included). Would you consider a modern cutter rig? With an apparently moderate displacement for a full-keel steel yacht of her size, a more efficient rig would be an attractive option to a lot of people I think...

there are quite a few wylo's around that had hulls built proffesionally,then completed by the owner,the idea behind having a gaff rig and wooden mast was that the rig could be cheaply put together by the owner.

as for the efficientcy of the gaff rig,it is probably more efficient than a bermudan rig,as a larger sail area is carried lower down,enabling the vessel to carry more sail for longer!

this is not a boat for the push button or single reefing line sailor,more an efficient sea worthy passagemaker that is easily repaired in off the beaten track places,with the addition of legs the boat will happily take the bottom in tidal waters,a great go anywhere boat.

[europaflyer]

Originally Posted by atoll

there are quite a few wylo's around that had hulls built proffesionally,then completed by the owner,the idea behind having a gaff rig and wooden mast was that the rig could be cheaply put together by the owner.

as for the efficientcy of the gaff rig,it is probably more efficient than a bermudan rig,as a larger sail area is carried lower down,enabling the vessel to carry more sail for longer!

this is not a boat for the push button or single reefing line sailor,more an efficient sea worthy passagemaker that is easily repaired in off the beaten track places,with the addition of legs the boat will happily take the bottom in tidal waters,a great go anywhere boat.

Not saying there's anything wrong wrong with a gaff rig, but ONLY offering gaff rig seems to be like shooting yourself in the foot...

If you read Robin Knox-Johnston's account of his RTW trip it becomes apparent just how much sailing hardware hardware has come on in only 45 years of serious cruising really taking off - and his gear was pretty good for the 1960s, not the 1860s which is what VY are offering! We're talking winches which just aren't up to the job, badly designed rollerfurler gear on the boom which left him with a broken gooseneck, having to design his own selfsteering gear which was junk, rusting standing rigging etc etc. All these problems have been overcome with modern equipment, built on the basis of 50 years of experience of cruising having taken off and become a popular pastime. People may like traditional rigs for their appearance or low cost, but for most people the reliability of modern hardware, the ease of sail handling with rollerfurler gear (although it's not for me), single line reefing and the better upwind performance of bermudan rig make a traditional wooden gaff a BIG turn off. Not saying it's a bad rig, but I fear it just won't sell boats. I hope I'm proven wrong!

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by boatman61

That's why the UK car/m'bike industry died... tradition is a big thing to Brit's...

That more to do with p#ss poor management - the real "British disease".

Triumph been making plenty of motorbikes for the last couple of decades now, the difference from the previous Triumph company(s) is good management, not being publically listed (so not subject to the short term whims and ignorance of spivs) and by realising that if you want a future in trading on tradition yer need to keep making it!, and by that I don't mean rehashing models that yer grandad rode, except sanitised to be pitched at the mid-life crisis brigade (no names ).

In 20, 30 and 50 years time folks will be re-building (and buying new retro versions) of these to relive past youth, whether or not they could afford one at the time:-



Try that on a V twin .

Of course Triumph did not invent the modern "Streetfighter" concept (a cheap fix for a crashed and fairingless japanese superbike), but from "Back in the day" half of first dibs on the concept of a hooligan bike .....but they had the wit to realise that the world has moved on, including for hooligans .

How does all that relate to this thread? I dunno .....except perhaps to say that whilst embracing the past always wise to keep one eye on the present and future as not everything in yer olden days has stood the test of time, the market may say it wants one thing - but buys another....bikes, boats and buckets .

[Normanby]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

That's more to do with p#ss poor management - the real "British disease".

Many of your piss poor mid-management unemployables have been showing up here in Oz lately.

I keep hearing so many UK accents on my TV and radio, I'm beginning to suspect that the financial crisis was a grand conspiracy to trick the dead-weight managers into emigrating.

160 years ago you sent us your criminals, fine.
But sending these useless middle managers, sheesh, that's just mean.

What did we ever do to you?!

Reminds me of the chapter in Hitch Hikers' Guide about the Telephone Sanitisers.

P.S. I fixed up your grammar slip on the quote above, no charge...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

That more to do with p#ss poor management - the real "British disease".

Triumph been making plenty of motorbikes for the last couple of decades now, the difference from the previous Triumph company(s) is good management, not being publically listed (so not subject to the short term whims and ignorance of spivs) and by realising that if you want a future in trading on tradition yer need to keep making it!, and by that I don't mean rehashing models that yer grandad rode, except sanitised to be pitched at the mid-life crisis brigade (no names ).

In 20, 30 and 50 years time folks will be re-building (and buying new retro versions) of these to relive past youth, whether or not they could afford one at the time:-



Try that on a V twin .

Of course Triumph did not invent the modern "Streetfighter" concept (a cheap fix for a crashed and fairingless japanese superbike), but from "Back in the day" half of first dibs on the concept of a hooligan bike .....but they had the wit to realise that the world has moved on, including for hooligans .

How does all that relate to this thread? I dunno .....except perhaps to say that whilst embracing the past always wise to keep one eye on the present and future as not everything in yer olden days has stood the test of time, the market may say it wants one thing - but buys another....bikes, boats and buckets .

It relates in as much... have the vintage enthusiasts 'look' by all means but not covering ALL base's is.... how did you put it...??
Mind... these style builders are most likely order only... so buyers spec's/wishes likely accepted and catered for...
if they want lunch money..

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Normanby

P.S. I fixed up your grammar slip on the quote above, no charge...

Having my grammer fixed by an Aussie - the shame .

BTW that was actually deliberate!, internet (for me) a DIY mix of written and spoken styles. And over here the 's on the end of "that" would be silent when spoken in that context (although of course still existing).

The wonderful thing about English is that it is constantly evolving - some of us are sometimes ahead of the curve.........

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

The wonderful thing about English is that it is constantly evolving - some of us are sometimes ahead of the curve.........

Indeed. Many of the old rules are stoopid like not ending a sentence with a preposition. I always try to.

Here in the land of freedom and V twins, the best country in the cosmos, a sage has written on a loo wall: HD ... 1950s technology, 2013 prices.

On topic, as the world continues the downward spiral, having a steel boat with a simple, and low rig that's owner-maintainable makes big sense. There could easily come a time where chemicals to fix fiberglass, etc are not to be found at any price.

[Capt Rottnest]

Originally Posted by europaflyer

Not saying there's anything wrong wrong with a gaff rig, but ONLY offering gaff rig seems to be like shooting yourself in the foot...

If you read Robin Knox-Johnston's account of his RTW trip it becomes apparent just how much sailing hardware hardware has come on in only 45 years of serious cruising really taking off - and his gear was pretty good for the 1960s, not the 1860s which is what VY are offering! We're talking winches which just aren't up to the job, badly designed rollerfurler gear on the boom which left him with a broken gooseneck, having to design his own selfsteering gear which was junk, rusting standing rigging etc etc. All these problems have been overcome with modern equipment, built on the basis of 50 years of experience of cruising having taken off and become a popular pastime. People may like traditional rigs for their appearance or low cost, but for most people the reliability of modern hardware, the ease of sail handling with rollerfurler gear (although it's not for me), single line reefing and the better upwind performance of bermudan rig make a traditional wooden gaff a BIG turn off. Not saying it's a bad rig, but I fear it just won't sell boats. I hope I'm proven wrong!

I dont subscribe to any of the above at all ^
Modern components (blocks, lines, winches, sail cloth) can be used with a gaff rig if desired, even on my 2,000 year old rig..
Top it off, likely customers of a Wylo are likely to understand the superiority of the gaff rig.

[europaflyer]

Originally Posted by Capt Rottnest

I dont subscribe to any of the above at all ^
Modern components (blocks, lines, winches, sail cloth) can be used with a gaff rig if desired, even on my 2,000 year old rig..
Top it off, likely customers of a Wylo are likely to understand the superiority of the gaff rig.

But VY intend to use the old fashioned components - wooden spars and Wykeham-Martin furler gear being a case in point. I realise SOME people may 'understand the superiority' of a gaff rig of this type (and there is no doubt it does have some practical advantages as well as aesthetic ones), but there are also a lot of people who understand the shortcomings of the rig and wouldn't consider it for this reason. My point is that I think VY is making a mistake confining themselves to such a small market. But, as I said before, I hope to be proven wrong!

[Andrew Troup]

It seems to me that if you're aiming to satisfy a niche market, you need to be quite focussed.

Trying to hedge your bets can result in 'falling between two stools'.

As a cricket commentator whose name escapes me one famously said

"Hmmm, Funny name, Cunis. Neither one thing, nor the other....."

[Capt Rottnest]

Trying to be all things to everyone is like competing with Woolworths (Safeways), a losing proposition if there ever was one.

[Benz]

You must also consider, Europaflyer, that offering a different rig would necessitate a change in the design. Even if not requiring that the partners be further aft, which would require moving a bulkhead perhaps, which might interfere with some clever inside arrangement, rigging for a jib-headed main might spoil the look which Wylo is shooting for. Perhaps in licensing the design the designer stipulated that they must keep his vision intact--we can only speculate what arrangement they reached. At the very least it would require having a new rig designed, and having all the needful jigs, drawings and templates handy. But as to a gaff rig, I've said this before on this forum, the rig should suit the boat. It would be ridiculous to put a jib-headed main on a Norfolk Wherry, or a dutch canal barge, or a Scillonian Pilot cutter--the rigs and hulls have a lovely symmetry together, and no other rig suits them quite so. Likewise it would be laughable to put a junk rig or a dipping lug on a Melges 31: they are not suited to one another. Many people throughout history, and some today, consider the gaff rig to best suit a moderate to heavy-displacement cruising boat. They need not be built of clunky wood--my gaff rig has aluminum spars and synthetic rope rigging, was built cheaply and easily at home, is a breeze to tune and maintain, and has given perfect satisfaction for thousands of miles.

[Andrew Troup]

Benz, I think, nailed another important point. Thanks for stating it so eloquently !

I had been thinking a murkier version along the same lines. For instance: a gaff rig has a lower centre of effort.

I don't agree that makes it more efficient, in the technical sense of that term: efficiency of a sail plan is very much improved as the aspect ratio increases ...

but I think the previous poster was looking at a much broader concept of efficiency, including the effort contributed and risks averted on the part of the sailor(s)
and if so, I quite agree

It's impressive how a gaff rig can deal with sailhandling challenges which most modern rigs fail: the ability to drop the main when forced to run off in a screaming squall is the obvious one...

(yes I know there are ways to adapt some modern rigs to permit this, but it's still challenging, either in design or execution, and not often done. I feel a trifle uneasy sailing on vessels lacking this capability in windy venues, especially in confined waterways too deep/steep for an anchor, or in tropical waters)

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that a hull which suits a sailplan with a low centre of effort is not going to be very well suited to a tall rig.

Boat design is not (I think) a clipboard, tick-all-the-boxes exercise, although www forums tend to make it seem that way....

It's often described as a recursive spiral where each decision affects all previous decisions so that apparently minor changes late in the process often require fundamental parameters to be revisited.

I know this does not usually happen.... but personally I think that's why truly wholesome boats are in relatively short supply.