The Death of the Ketch ?

[Tony B]

After owning several sloops and my current sailboat (now up for sale) is a ketch I can honestly say that the ketch rig is the easiset and safest rig to handle. They are perfect for single handling or an ilder couple. Simply raise the mizzen first. The mizzen is like a tail feather on a weather vane - will point you into the wind. Then raise the main and then the jib. Once adjusted, the mizzen usually requires little to no attention. Usually you dont swing it outboard as much as the main, at least it doesn't appear to be, maybe because it is much smaller. When the weather turns snotty quickly, I find it much easier to drop the main entirely, than to reef it as I did on my sloops. When running the jib and mizzen alone (jib and jigger) in rough weather, the boat stands up nicely, still exceeds hull speed and is in much better control.

[ketchman]

Hey Tony, and thanks for that post. I'm curently rebuilding a 1968 39 foot philp rhoads design ketch. Lord willing in the water this spring. Sailing on lake michigan will be needing that sail plan for sure.
Thanks captain
wilson

[Duuk]

Apart from the looks there is one other appeal to ketches for me. Or at least is imagine it to be as I have never sailed a ketch before. That the fact you have more different things to do. When your cruising about and feel like doing something fun you can just add another sail (staysail or a mule) for more entertainment. Just like adding watersails (rigged under the boom) at reaching or running courses on klippers

To bad it is hard to find smaller ~30ish ketches. And most of the time they then look a bit like a weird dinghie

[ketchman]

So true,,and im excited to try all the different sail patterns. I custom built a bowspirit/anchor roller and moved the fractonail jib out a hair. Then I added a over the top shourd to the masthead to fly a sail over top for light air .Looks like an old Nathaniel Herreshoff on his (NYYC 50). Pictures can be found on (sailboat Data.com). Like having an over the top cutter sail. That's sweet!!!

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by minaret

Based on the layout in these pics, I would call your boat more of a yawl than a ketch. The mizzen is pretty small and aft of the helm. The big difference in most designs between a ketch rig and a sloop is that the main mast in the ketch will be placed further forward than the sloop, resulting in a smaller foretriangle. This is one reason that sloops generally do better to weather than ketches, we all know the jib drives the boat to weather and a sloop has a bigger jib. Also with the main further aft, the sloop will tend to balance the helm better when sailing to weather. Of course that is the exact reason the main on a ketch is further forward, it will tend to balance the helm when sailing downwind, making it a better downwind sailor than the sloop. Having the main further forward also obviously makes room for a bigger mizzen, placed further forward as well. The traditional way to define whether a boat is a ketch or a yawl is whether the mizzen is forward of the helm or aft of it, as well as main mast location. This is of course complicated by modern center cockpit designs, but your boat clearly has an aft cockpit, with the mizzen behind the helm, and the mainmast in exactly the same place as the sloop rig. This makes it a yawl to me, which is a sloop with a small mizzen added.

I've seen a few builders have a "ketch" rig designed with the main in the same place as it is in the sloop. It is usually a cost saving measure, so that a second set of deck tooling is not needed, which saves the builder a vast sum of money. But I doubt that's the case here. Wonder why they drew it that way, and then called it a ketch instead of a yawl?

Our boat is center cockpit. The mizzen is stepped a good 5 feet ahead of the rudder post - therefore Ketch. You could put the helm on the bow or the transom. The relationship that counts is the mast to the rudder post.

I attaced a couple of photos of our ROXY and of my cousin's African Queen, both Camper 58's & both with 80 foot mains, both center cockpit.

[ketchman]

Nicholson 58, very nice!! If you dont mind could you tell me your total square foot sail area, and also the square foot area of the mizzen sail alone. From what i've studied the mizzen sail should account for 17 to 20% of the total sail area.
Thanks

[Jacko]

The ketch is alive and well here in FNQ Australia not any new but plenty of great well kept aged they are terrific to single hand and all the above posts out line the best qualities. Every fashion has a come back look at the young girls they are all wareing what was called the mini and the guys are in stove pipe pants " be warned the KETCH WILL RETURN "
I have attached ( hopefully ) a shot of my beauty in the slip here in FNQ Aust. If it is not attached maybe someone might help me with how to do it ( I have read the instructions) If this works I will send more shots Cheers Jacko

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Our boat is center cockpit. The mizzen is stepped a good 5 feet ahead of the rudder post - therefore Ketch. You could put the helm on the bow or the transom. The relationship that counts is the mast to the rudder post.

I attaced a couple of photos of our ROXY and of my cousin's African Queen, both Camper 58's & both with 80 foot mains, both center cockpit.

Wonderful pics!

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by ketchman

Nicholson 58, very nice!! If you dont mind could you tell me your total square foot sail area, and also the square foot area of the mizzen sail alone. From what i've studied the mizzen sail should account for 17 to 20% of the total sail area.
Thanks

The mizzen mast is 48 feet. It seems quite enough. Any more, and the helm would be impossible. Rudder is 6 feet X 2-1/2 feet.

mizzen 212 ft^2
main 555 ft^2
#1 - 135% 965 ft^2
AS spinnaker is appx a 200% Jib. Clew is in the cockpit.

total with the 135 is 1730 ft^2

The mizzen (and main) would be more useful if it was a membrane material and made flatter. The replacement will be Kevlar or other stiff stuff. The mizzen could go to weather iif it was flatter.

[banyandah]

Seems dominated by ketch lovers, so I'll jump boots and all after sailing a two sailing ship for 100K NM, now converted to a cutter.

Things not mentioned, a ketch clutters your aft deck, ain't no good off the wind, pushes the aft end around, dirties the main's wind, and provides even more maintenance. Obviously none of you use a wind vane steering device cause the mizzen mucks one of these too. Nope. On a sub 45' footer, get rid of it and enjoy the freedom of open space. Furling gear does the job today that smaller sails did yesterday. Photos on our website. Cheers from down under.

[banyandah]

Bill,
When we converted Banyandah from a ketch, we shifted the mainmast aft about 18" or 20" and added a bowspirt, for many reasons. One was to get the anchor away from the bows, the other of course was to increase the headsail which we put on a Reefurl furler.

We did not need to fill up any deck holes as the mizzen deck stepped. But it's easy to fill in holes, or cut bits out for that matter. There are a few photos on our website of the refit.

We also added an aft tower that carries our solar panels, antennae, etc, besides replacing someplace that offers support in lieu of the mizzen shrouds.

Hope that helps,


More photos

[TeddyDiver]

True in your case, with stern cabin and high cockpit. That's not a typical ketch deck IMHO

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Geoduck

In the slip or at anchor with the wind in your teeth, haul both booms as far forward as you can,& back wind the jib and you'll go backwards!

You can sail a sloop backwards too...

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

You can sail a sloop backwards too...

If your boom doesn't stick the neighbour..

[GaryMayo]

Originally Posted by banyandah

Bill,
When we converted Banyandah from a ketch, we shifted the mainmast aft about 18" or 20" and added a bowspirt, for many reasons. One was to get the anchor away from the bows, the other of course was to increase the headsail which we put on a Reefurl furler.

We did not need to fill up any deck holes as the mizzen deck stepped. But it's easy to fill in holes, or cut bits out for that matter. There are a few photos on our website of the refit.

We also added an aft tower that carries our solar panels, antennae, etc, besides replacing someplace that offers support in lieu of the mizzen shrouds.

Hope that helps,

More photos

That is as major a refit as I have ever looked at. Looks like she took a pretty penny to do as well as elbow grease. Great labor of love. Thanks for sharing that.