The criteria of "blue"

[Paul54]

A few years ago I went sailing with a friend and was shocked that he had no charts on board. I asked him what he would do if his GPS failed. He said he had a second unit as a backup. He eventually bought a few charts as an extra precaution. I had learned using charts but was quite amazed at the ease and accuracy of using the GPS.

Years later I ended up buying the same boat. Now I have two Garmin units that run off of the boat's power, several programs on my iPad and phone completely self powered. When my partner is with me we have an additional phone and tablet with GPS and charts. So I now normally carry six chart plotters.

The paper charts are still on board as well as the parallel rule and dividers. The charts have yet to be looked at. I feel like I am a better and safer sailor with the GPS. Certainly a happier one.

[Browning]

Originally Posted by Paul54

Now I have two Garmin units that run off of the boat's power, several programs on my iPad and phone completely self powered. When my partner is with me we have an additional phone and tablet with GPS and charts. So I now normally carry six chart plotters.

The drawback of this instrumentation is that it requires electricity. So when your battery is damaged, you really have no backup but your paper charts. Independently of the count of your GPS receivers, you still have a potential single point of failure.

[Paul54]

Two of the GPS units run off of 12 volt ship power. The other four units can run on internal battery alone or kept charged while ship power is available. I probably have well over 24 hours of continuous use on portables on their internal batteries. More if I turn them off and on as needed. Usually plenty of time to head to a safe harbor. If needed I can turn one on briefly to get a position fix, then refer to my paper charts.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Browning

... Independently of the count of your GPS receivers, you still have a potential single point of failure.

GPS is a single point of failure. (Anyone else remember when GPS accuracy was downgraded for civilian use? We used to be well aware that the military could switch it off any time they wanted.) But navigation doesn't make a yacht blue or non-blue - weather information does. If we sail deep offshore nowadays in yachts that don't meet the stability criteria that yacht designers have almost unanimously come to accept as the minimum for crossing oceans, then we need to avoid those weather systems. What are the potential points of failure? 1. SSB receiver; 2. SSB aerial; 3. ship's batteries; 4. shore station transmitting the information; 5. computer downloading the information - any other failure mechanisms?

I don't know how we can call this 'seamanlike' - I'd want a little more independence/self-reliance before I'd consider myself 'blue'.

[Paul54]

I don't consider my behavior to be very seaman like, nor do I consider myself to be blue. I just like to go sailing.

Sure the entire GPS system could go down, but very unlikely. I just find it a handy way to know where I am.

If you drop me off at dark "somewhere" on the water I would not have a clue where I am.

Navigation doesn't make my boat any better or any worse. It just lets me know where I am and where I am headed.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

- any other failure mechanisms?

The sun could burn out.....

[Svanen]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Having spent a year or more trying to determine the value/s of this often coined phrase "A true blue yacht" I am still none the wiser as to the implication of this term with respect to the criteria a yacht should have to qualify for this coveted label….

I personally have at this point concluded that the phrase "true blue boat/yacht" that I see every where means absolutely nothing and we should stop using it if we can not define it properly. I think it is dangerous to infer subjective characteristics of a boat without proper specification.

Yes, the phrase is largely subjective and there are no universally-accepted criteria. But it is not apparent to me that potential purchasers are dangerously misled, any more than they are by other subjective descriptions (e.g. "well-equipped", "beautiful", "sail-way / turn-key condition", "fast", "heavy-duty", etc.).

I'm not sure that the "coveted label" is really all that coveted. In the context of boat sales, it's little more than brokers' hyperbole: legally speaking, a mere puff.

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Everybody is able to give an opinion but it really is time for a common standard/specification.

Why? If you're going to advocate for legislation, you'll have to make a persuasive case for it, not just state your own desire (aka opinion).

Originally Posted by paulanthony

We have CE category A on everything it seems. (Unlimited ocean voyages) and that is all we have. I have no real way to determine that one boat is more sea worthy than another.

Not necessarily:

• If a yacht falls within the SCV coding, look for one that is Category 1 (150 miles from a safe haven) or Category 0 (unrestricted).
• If it is used for offshore racing, the ISAF offshore special regulations will apply. Look for a boat that has qualified in Category 1 ("long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance" or Category 0 ("Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance").

I don't suggest that the above classifications guarantee seaworthiness; but they do supplement CE Category A, and IMO are substantially more meaningful than the latter.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Svanen

Yes, the phrase is largely subjective and there are no universally-accepted criteria. But it is not apparent to me that potential purchasers are dangerously misled, any more than they are by other subjective descriptions (e.g. "well-equipped", "beautiful", "sail-way / turn-key condition", "fast", "heavy-duty", etc.).

I'm not sure that the "coveted label" is really all that coveted. In the context of boat sales, it's little more than brokers' hyperbole: legally speaking, a mere puff.


Why? If you're going to advocate for legislation, you'll have to make a persuasive case for it, not just state your own desire (aka opinion).


Not necessarily:

• If a yacht falls within the SCV coding, look for one that is Category 1 (150 miles from a safe haven) or Category 0 (unrestricted).
• If it is used for offshore racing, the ISAF offshore special regulations will apply. Look for a boat that has qualified in Category 1 ("long distance and well offshore, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance" or Category 0 ("Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5 degrees Celsius other than temporarily, where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance").

I don't suggest that the above classifications guarantee seaworthiness; but they do supplement CE Category A, and IMO are substantially more meaningful than the latter.

Maybe a Beaufort survivability/suitability rating may be nice. As entities I am sure that a one boat when locked down may float as long as another but some will float in a better way and offer greater security when people are added to the equation. The CE certification is a very good thing but it is still very hard to determine what it relates to. The problem with applying racing standards is that they include accepted design compromise for sake of speed over survival. - Not sure they are the best guide when cruising except with respect to build quality and strength.

As example to my original point, I might be smitten by the Jeanneau 53. Looks tempting but does the open deck space represent more danger in a force 9/10 than say that of an outbound 52 that has a very deep and narrow cockpit? Probably yes. I would just like to see a lot more simple information on the tin.

- Incidentally - I enjoyed reading your reply.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Maybe a Beaufort survivability/suitability rating may be nice. As entities I am sure that a one boat when locked down may float as long as another but some will float in a better way and offer greater security when people are added to the equation. The CE certification is a very good thing but it is still very hard to determine what it relates to. The problem with applying racing standards is that they include accepted design compromise for sake of speed over survival. - Not sure they are the best guide when cruising except with respect to build quality and strength.

As example to my original point, I might be smitten by the Jeanneau 53. Looks tempting but does the open deck space represent more danger in a force 9/10 than say that of an outbound 52 that has a very deep and narrow cockpit? Probably yes. I would just like to see a lot more simple information on the tin.

- Incidentally - I enjoyed reading your reply.

Working on that criteria a Hurley 22 would be perfect for you.. little deck space.. lots of handholds and proven to withstand a December storm in the Biscay with 11 metre seas and 80+kts winds.. in fact its so seaworthy that it out floated 2 Spanish and 1 Portuguese large commercial fishing vessels that went down within a 50 mile radius of it..
The Penis rule don't work in open waters

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Working on that criteria a Hurley 22 would be perfect for you.. little deck space.. lots of handholds and proven to withstand a December storm in the Biscay with 11 metre seas and 80+kts winds.. in fact its so seaworthy that it out floated 2 Spanish and 1 Portuguese large commercial fishing vessels that went down within a 50 mile radius of it..
The Penis rule don't work in open waters

The penis rule does not work very much on land either.. Shall be give the Hurley 22 a B12 rating then? If it does what it says on the tin then why not..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

The penis rule does not work very much on land either.. Shall be give the Hurley 22 a B12 rating then? If it does what it says on the tin then why not..

They were built way before mass production self promotion/regulation boats came along..
They can sink tho'.. the rudder post tubes rot out.. Glug Glug.
But an easy fix if one is aware.. lol

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Maybe a Beaufort survivability/suitability rating may be nice. ...

Remember how many years it took European countries to agree to that basic Cat A rating? What a lengthy process that turned out to be, and all credit apparently to one man, who kept pushing and pushing. How long before more than one country could agree a 'Beaufort rating' - centuries? Be thankful for what we've got already.

(And my thanks are also due to this forum: a month ago I'd never heard of the European stability standards, in force since about 1998!!! Thanks guys - interesting talk!)

[El Pinguino]

Wind force doesn't have much to do with anything its all about sea state... you can be having the time of your little life going down hill under bare poles in 65 knots if the sea is flat.. 25 knots with a steep NE'ly sea over a heavy SWly swell and you can be in survival conditions... stick a north going current under it and you will have even more fun.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Remember how many years it took European countries to agree to that basic Cat A rating? What a lengthy process that turned out to be, and all credit apparently to one man, who kept pushing and pushing. How long before more than one country could agree a 'Beaufort rating' - centuries? Be thankful for what we've got already.

(And my thanks are also due to this forum: a month ago I'd never heard of the European stability standards, in force since about 1998!!! Thanks guys - interesting talk!)

In this age of the tinternet you could create an unofficial public reference point of aggregated collated opinion quite easily. It seems most newbies are seeking opinion from forums such as this anyway before buying a boat so why not formalise it a little and make it visually and pictorially clear. Would not need the support of manufacturers or national bureaucrats. Would be a people power driven thing. Be it wrong or right I am sure if such a thing existed it would be considered. Someone above just mentioned sea state and wind state are often out if phase in the real world which is true but the Beaufort scale pictorials shows the sea implied keeping it simple.

Example... Bene oceanis 45 - Spacious and open rear cockpit. What Beaufort would you plot for A: suitability and B: survivability?





I might when I free up some capacity have a go at building it myself. It would just needs a small question and answer front end intro to weight the experience/knowledge of the contributors.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

GPS is a single point of failure. (Anyone else remember when GPS accuracy was downgraded for civilian use? We used to be well aware that the military could switch it off any time they wanted.) But navigation doesn't make a yacht blue or non-blue - weather information does. If we sail deep offshore nowadays in yachts that don't meet the stability criteria that yacht designers have almost unanimously come to accept as the minimum for crossing oceans, then we need to avoid those weather systems. What are the potential points of failure? 1. SSB receiver; 2. SSB aerial; 3. ship's batteries; 4. shore station transmitting the information; 5. computer downloading the information - any other failure mechanisms?

I don't know how we can call this 'seamanlike' - I'd want a little more independence/self-reliance before I'd consider myself 'blue'.

One for you here Nevisdog. I am quite partial to its potential as a top blue water yacht myself. Hope they build it.

Koopans design - Globessy Offshore Cruiser Yacht - Dick Koopmans