The criteria of "blue"

[NevisDog]

My search for a low-cost, low-maintenance, true-blue boat has taken some strange turns. This one may be controversial but I thought I'd throw it out there for comment. That famous experimenter Blondie Hasler is at the back of my mind here.

One of the least safe aspects of blue-water boating is changing headsails on a heaving deck. I expect most rely on roller reefing/furling but that only takes us so far - eventually we need storm sails. I've always liked the look of unstayed masts (no piano-taught wires to fail), leading me towards junk rig or cat ketch/catboat. There's been some favorable comment on Freedom ketches elsewhere, and a few other similar yachts around - can anyone comment on their sail-handling in heavy weather?

[mglonnro]

This has been an interesting read

The new EU directive has amended category A (my italics):

A OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

Further explaining:

For Category A, extreme conditions apply as they reflect that a vessel engaged on a long voyage might incur any conditions and should be designed accordingly, excluding abnormal weather conditions, for example hurricanes and tornadoes and extreme sea conditions or freak waves generated by abnormal conditions.

My own .02:

• I agree with the OP that shared quantifiable (and understandable) criteria is the way to go, but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, why not just add to CE/ISO? Maybe there is a need for a CE Category AA.
• Since many of us live in democracies, where CE ratings and such are produced as part of a democratic process, I think it's just another way of 'us' setting the criteria - not necessarily the outsourcing of responsibility to bureaucrats.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

I've always liked the look of unstayed masts (no piano-taught wires to fail), leading me towards junk rig or cat ketch/catboat.

You end up with big chunky tree trunks and you need two coz u can't have a forward sail. Can't use carbon either coz they have to bend and would get fatigued but...

There is that new material I posted before that would fit the task and give bendability without having to have two veritable redwoods growing out your deck.

This stuff. Arovex® Prepregs — Zyvex Technologies If they made free standing masts from this It would get my interest.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

This has been an interesting read

The new EU directive has amended category A (my italics):



Further explaining:



My own .02:

• I agree with the OP that shared quantifiable (and understandable) criteria is the way to go, but instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, why not just add to CE/ISO? Maybe there is a need for a CE Category AA.
• Since many of us live in democracies, where CE ratings and such are produced as part of a democratic process, I think it's just another way of 'us' setting the criteria - not necessarily the outsourcing of responsibility to bureaucrats.

I think I would agree. There are a few more notches beyond beaufort 8 that could be defined but I guess it is fair to keep those standards distinctive from cat A less main stream boat production becomes too expensive but for sure it would be nice to have a "cruising" blue print standard beyond what we have. That way we could measure blue water credentials objectively rather than rely on our own often counter intuitive logic. I wonder how many current yachts that imply "AA" would fall short of the standard. A lot I think. Yeh, good idea but I don't think the Americans would like it. They seem to resist the notion of certifiable standards.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

I've always liked the look of unstayed masts (no piano-taught wires to fail), leading me towards junk rig or cat ketch/catboat.

You don't need sails with masts this thick. They need to be half the diameter for me to totally fall in love.

[hoppy]

What about these free standing masts for a super yacht being built




Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[paulanthony]

Some free mast eye candy. Have no idea what it is.

[gcaptain]

A "blue water boat" is one capable of handling mistakes.

That is... In the hands of a perfect skipper nearly any boat can handle the ocean but a "blue water boat" will get you to a safe harbor (i.e. will continue to float and sail) after you screwed up royally (e.g. you failed to route around the storm, you failed to spot that floating container dead ahead, you failed to check the rigging, etc).

And considering we all make mistakes...

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

...Yeh, good idea but I don't think the Americans would like it. They seem to resist the notion of certifiable standards.

There is one huge philosophical divide between the two extreme viewpoints - "the land of the free" on one side and the ever-encroaching "nanny state" on the other - a bit like gun law reform perhaps?

My 2 cents: NZ is a prime example of nanny-state gone overboard. We still lose yachts here, some without trace, despite the over-protective rules around everyone's yacht being surveyed by big-brother-nanny-state inspectors before heading offshore. In contrast, the EU Cat A standard is informative - if I choose to depart Europe in a Cat B then no one is going to stop me. For me, that is the fundamental difference that makes the EU regulations acceptable, but be ever careful what you wish for.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by gcaptain

A "blue water boat" is one capable of handling mistakes... (e.g. you failed to route around the storm, you failed to spot that floating container dead ahead, you failed to check the rigging, etc)...

Interesting comment, but I can't think of a yacht that can withstand an impact with a near-submerged container, or a mid-ocean reef (think Volvo ocean race), or, or... Set any collision standard you like - the Titanic will prove you wrong.

Nothing is bulletproof - we just try to get close. Measuring that gap is maybe the measure of blue. I guess that's what Cat A tries to do for us: not perfect, but...

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

You don't need sails with masts this thick. They need to be half the diameter for me to totally fall in love.

Think Tiger Moth and jumbo jet - choose wire and string and sticking-plaster, or engineered perfection! No fundamental difference between an aeroplane wing and a yacht sail - they both create lift. Sleeve sails are very efficient but I don't know how easily handled they are. Junk foils are slowly improving, and no one disputes their ease of reefing on a storm-tossed ocean. But the big plus has to be reduced running costs - new rigging every ten(?) years, or a mast that lasts a lifetime?

[cohort]

Recommend you buy a boat based on the type of sailing you will be doing and where. Bottom line, the boat doesn't capsize and the sails don't rip in 15kts of wind, you can't push your finger through the hull and you don't fall through the deck when walking on it, You can carry enough water and food to avoid dehydration and starvation and you have enough room on board so that you and your crew don't start trying to kill each other on day two. Beyond that, everything else is an accessory.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Some free mast eye candy. Have no idea what it is.

May be eye candy to you, looks unbalanced and clunky to me!

Jim

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Some free mast eye candy. Have no idea what it is.

It's a Freedom 40 - I much prefer the wishbone rig on one of these 'ugly ducklings' - this picture makes it look unbalanced.

Though I love the look of the 44, my interest at the moment is in the Freedom 32 - seems to have an unusually spacious interior for a 32 ft yacht, all at a basement price (second hand). My biggest concern is the balsa core hull - anyone familiar with them?

[gcaptain]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Interesting comment, but I can't think of a yacht that can withstand an impact with a near-submerged container, or a mid-ocean reef (think Volvo ocean race), or, or... Set any collision standard you like - the Titanic will prove you wrong.

We aren't talking extremes... life is lived in the gray areas and marine incidents are always the result of a chain of events. A collision with a container is a survivable problem depending on your relative speed and damage control kit/prowess... but hit a container head on what other problems might you have? In most boats you'll also loose your headstay and, if the design and materials are poor, there goes your rig.

In poorly designed boats small problems turn into big (life threatening) problems. On well designed "blue water boats" big problems (like mid-ocean collisions) remain big problems but they don't snowball into catastrophes (provided the crew is competent).