Tartan or Sabre ? Here's a Couple of Examples

[CarlF]

Ahh. Email. Next tip. Brokers are a business. It's not for fun. Since brokers can only work with one person at any one moment, they are constantly judging whether they are "wasting" time with someone.

Email enquiries from people you don't know are usually a waste of time. Thirteen year old kids, Nigerian scammers, someone in prison (really!), etc.

So I always make first contact with a broker by phone. Right away I tell him a bit about myself (last boat owned, why the boat I'm calling about seems like a possibility) After the first call, Email is OK.

By the end of the call, you want him thinking "This guy's going to buy a boat from someone".

When you are getting serious about the boat (either before an offer or before you come up in a negotiation) ask to have a call with the owner. When buying any boat the two things you care most about are:

1: Build quality. In the case of Sabre and Tartan you know it's very good. Little Harbor, Hinckley, Oyster, Shannon, etc. are a notch up but you pay for it.

2: How well has it been maintained? You'll know the answer to this question after talking to the owner for 10 minutes.

Carl

[Tempest245]

Originally Posted by Jbingham

Apologies on the link. here it is.

1994 Sabre 425 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

i hear you on the apples to apple with the difference in size. I suppose a better questions would be WHICH of the two sabres look like a better value. and then more of a question on the two brands. is there a tartan that is closer to compare? any other suggestions?

obviously the price of the 88 is more desirable. If i can save 50-80k and get a great boat for the next several years that still is worth something come upgrade time, im all about it! i really appreciate the pointers. Im looking at the 1994 sabre next tuesday and hopefully the 88 the following week as well.

-Jonathan

Sight unseen, of the two Sabres...the '94 is 6 years younger, and looks to be better equipped..and the equipment is newer...it appears that the dinghy, motor, life raft, SSB radio are all conveying...there's no age on the dinghy but the outboard is new. There's no age given on either large roller furling. SO I'd guess that the 94's is original....I prefer the dutchman (94) over the lazy jacks...

The spead in asking price...$31,000....is 5 m per year of age diff....the equipment I mentioned above could run you..close to $10,000 to replace..
So that boils down to 21,000 diff. for a boat 6 years younger.

This is just "asking price" ..you may pay less...

I'm not suggesting that you buy a boat for it's equipment....but you should factor it in to the entire process. You will get a sense of how well maintained each is when you board. How clean are the bilges, the engine room, is it a dry boat, no sign of water intrusion.

A good survey and sea trial are essential...

I don't know enough about Tartans, other than it's a quality vessel..

If I were shopping for a 42 sabre...I'd be looking very hard at the 94...

Personally, I don't need a boat that large. I single hand often. I also like to keep my bridge clearance under 60 ft, etc. I like the newer sabre 362's.
I sail regularly on a newer 386...in my experience Sabres are all great sailing vessels..

[Jbingham]

Originally Posted by Tempest245

Sight unseen, of the two Sabres...the '94 is 6 years younger, and looks to be better equipped..and the equipment is newer...it appears that the dinghy, motor, life raft, SSB radio are all conveying...there's no age on the dinghy but the outboard is new. There's no age given on either large roller furling. SO I'd guess that the 94's is original....I prefer the dutchman (94) over the lazy jacks...

The spead in asking price...$31,000....is 5 m per year of age diff....the equipment I mentioned above could run you..close to $10,000 to replace..
So that boils down to 21,000 diff. for a boat 6 years younger.

This is just "asking price" ..you may pay less...

I'm not suggesting that you buy a boat for it's equipment....but you should factor it in to the entire process. You will get a sense of how well maintained each is when you board. How clean are the bilges, the engine room, is it a dry boat, no sign of water intrusion.

A good survey and sea trial are essential...

I don't know enough about Tartans, other than it's a quality vessel..

If I were shopping for a 42 sabre...I'd be looking very hard at the 94...

Personally, I don't need a boat that large. I single hand often. I also like to keep my bridge clearance under 60 ft, etc. I like the newer sabre 362's.
I sail regularly on a newer 386...in my experience Sabres are all great sailing vessels..

I'll let you know following our meeting with Linda! thank you!!

[Curmudgeon]

I looked at alot of Sabres and Tartans and finally bought a Bristol 38.8. Having said that, I'd look at the Tartan 3800 or Tartan 40 if you can find one in good condition. I was very interested in a Tartan 40 until the survey revealed that the electrical system would have to be redone. Also, the majority of Tartan 40s were LNG boats, not LPG. So that's 5 grand off the top to convert to propane-- and don't let the broker tell you it will cost less, at least if you want it done right.

Tartan 40's are nice, though. Good sailers, double quarter cabin aft, excellent storage. It's a better boat than the Sabre 38 MK2, and probably equivalent to the 402. I don't know how it stacks up against the 42 foot Sabres.

[Jbingham]

Looked at the sabre 42 today with Linda. A turn key boat for sure with minor cosmetics.

I have been lured to a 1988 Alden that has been on the hard for 2 1/2 years with a seller that is really motivated. I have a survey from a year ago where another buyer came close but didn't pull the trigger.

My main concern is centered around moisture. How is it possible to check when the boat has been on land for so long? How long will she have to be in the water prior to the survey? If there is moisture how screwed would it be to repair?

I think i can get a great deal and if restored back to her original glory she would be a dream boat for the family.

I'm going tomorrow to make an offer contingent on the sea trial, and a new survey.

Thoughts?

[Jbingham]

looks like i cant upload the entire pdf of the survey... ill try again....

boat is ecco domani on yacht world. only 1988 alden 50.

[Jbingham]

try it this way. old copy and paste...

VESSEL PARTICULARS
Builder: Alden Yachts Designer: John G. Alden Year Built: 1988 Model: Alden 50


LOA: 50’ 00” LWL:
Beam: 13’ 06”
Draft: 5’ 04” board up; 10’ 04” board down Displacement: 35,000 Lbs.
Ballast (type/amount): Lead / 13,000 Lbs.
Hull Type: Fin keel w/ centerboard / Skeg mounted
rudder
Material/Color: Fiberglass / white Speed: 8 Kts +
HULL AND SUPERSTRUCTURE:
Deck: Non-skid fiberglass, Balsa core
Cabin Sole: Teak and Holly veneer plywood
Bulkheads: Teak veneer plywood
Hatches&Ports-Gaskets: Appear good. No leaks observed
Construction Scantlings: Single skin gel coat over multiple layers of epoxy resin impregnated
fiberglass. Balsa cored hull. Molded hat section FRP keel stringer and floors. FRP tabbed full
and partial structural bulkheads.
Hull/Deck Joint: Horizontal Plane. SS through bolted w/ teak toe rail over Superstructure/Layout: Low trunk forward to center cockpit and aft deck w/ Lazarette access /
chain locker with storage way forward then collision bulkhead. V berths followed by port head, stbd hanging locker. Saloon is next aft w/ stbd seating, port settees around centerline dining table. The galley is next aft to port and the nav station is opposite. Passage to the aft cabin is both sides with guest cabin and over under bunks stbd, and second head with enclosed shower to port. Aft cabin has center line queen with port and stbd cabinetry and hanging lockers. Engine access is from the guest cabin, galley and behind companionway.
General Condition: - The hull (topsides and bottom), deck, rudder, interior bulkheads and stringers were examined visually, with a “Protimeter” moisture meter (readings are on a relative scale with 1000 being the highest reading, 100 -200 being normal low readings) and with a sounding hammer;

• Bottom - found smooth, fair and no delamination or osmotic blisters were noted. Moisture content was low at every point measured. No apparent moisture intrusion to the bottom. Very slight elevation noted around fwd through hull opening and at the LWL midships port side.
• Rudder – appears sound w/ no moisture intrusion and no apparent separation of FRP from the core – bearings in good condition.
• Topsides - Clean and fair. The topside awl grip is in very good condition. There are some light scuff marks and scratches under the transom. No significant blemishes to note.
• Decks – Secure and in generally good condition. Percussion sounding showed lifting or separation and moisture content was elevated as follows:

o Foredeck fwd of the windlass around hawse hole Balsa core is exposed and degraded in a 3 to 6 inch circle surrounding.
o Coach roof around the inside sail track port and stbd, separation w/ elevated moisture content to 800 and gel coat cracking parallel to the track.
o Around the port cap shroud chain plate separation and elevated moisture content to 900. o Stbd jib lead track cracking of the gel coat with separation of the FRP from the core and
elevated moisture content to 700.



37’ 01”




Page 3 of 10 Survey #223A09



Moisture content recorded elsewhere was low. no other apparent lifting or separation of the deck
or laminates noted. (Note)

• Keel stringer and floors – Molded. No visible cracks or areas appearing “worked”.
• Bilge – Deep bilge contains some oily waste (Note)
• Interior – The varnish is in good condition with areas where the veneer has lifted away from the
  underlying plywood (port main bulkhead along the headliner, and under the saloon mid portlight
  (stbd side). Joiner work, appointments and upholstery are otherwise in good condition
• Bulkheads and tabbing – The fiberglass bonding to the bulkheads, partitions, stringers
  and engine beds were inspected. All appeared to be in good condition with no sign of movement, delamination or deterioration or areas appearing “worked”
• The vessel was found in “Good” overall condition.
  Weather at time of survey: Overcast with showers, temps in the mid 50’s and NNE wind at 15 kts.
  PROPULSION SYSTEM
  General Condition: Engine space is clean and well ordered. Drive train to be tested at sea trial
  Type: Diesel

Hours: 1337 “By meter”
Manufacturer: “Westerbeke”
Model: W-70
Serial Number: Recent repainting has obscured number on
builders plate #Cylinders/HP: 4 / 70
Year/Year rebuilt: Assumed Original Cooling System: Fresh water heat exchanger Alarms: Yes
Gauges: Full @ helm


Molded FRP, integral to engine mounts Reinforced hose
Can type FRP In-line



Drip pan?:
Exhaust(s):
Silencer(s):
Reduction Gear: Yes ration not sighted Belts/Hoses: Appear good


Shaft: 1 1/4“ Stainless Steel
Stuffing Box: Traditional (Note)
Strut/Bearing: Single leg Bronze / Cutlass – good
Propeller: 3 bladed Bronze “Max prop” feathering type 24” Dia. Controls: Dual lever
Eng. Beds/Mounts: HD molded FRP stringers / Oxidized - appear secure
MECHANICAL SYSTEMS
General Condition: Good – all gear operational Eng.Rm.Ventilation: 12v Blower - new (33 CFR 183.610) Insulation: Foil & foam - new
Wheel/Tiller: SS wheel Wood
Steering Gear: Cable to quadrant – sheaves firmly mounted, bearings well lubricated, cable appears sound w/ no broken strands sighted
Emergency Steering: Tiller – Not observed
Rudder: Foam filled FRP
Rudder Post Gland: FRP Tube and bearing - Bearings appear in good condition





Page 4 of 10

Survey #223A09



Diaphragm in cockpit
Foot pump, with additional foot pump for seawater to galley sink


Bilge Pump(s)-Manual:
Auto: Diaphragm
Potable Water-Manual:
Pressure: “Jabsco” diaphragm type w/ accumulator
Air conditioning/Heating: (2) “Airmar” reverse cycle compressors. To be tested at sea trial Head(s): (2) “Wilcox Crittenden” 12vdc



Holding Tank: Yes – see Tankage and Plumbing
Macerator: Yes – tested operational
USCG Approved: Yes w/ “Y” valve one at each head (33 USC 159) Showers: Handheld in head fwd, enclosed in aft head
Sump/Pump: “Rule” 500 Gph one each sump. Pumps do not cycle off (Note) Anchor Windlass: “Maxwell Nilsson” 12vdc
Zincs: Need replacing (Note)
ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS
General Condition: All gear operational and in good condition – except as noted DC-Batteries/Amps: (1) 12v Gp27, (3) HD 4D, (1) HD 8D
Boxes: Wood lined w/straps under aft berth
Approved: Yes (ABYC E 10.7.1 – 10.7.12)
Battery fluid level: AGM Sealed type Condition of terminals: Good
Engine Alternator/Amps: (2) Est. 90 amps Charger/Amps: “Professional Mariner” / 50 amp Vapor Proof Switch(es): (3) “Guest”
DC control panel: At nav station
Circuit Protection: Magnetic breakers & fuses Installation: DC wiring is both original and new stranded
copper. Newer wire runs are bundled with original harnessing. Compliant w/ NFPA 302 7-13.4. Except AC wiring connection for the AC refrigeration system uses conventional extension cord type plugs under fwd port settee (Note).


30 & 50 amp cable
In main salon, in original condition. Yes



AC-Shorepower:
AC control panel:
GFCI Protected?:
Inverter/Watts:
Generator/KW:
Serial #/Hours:
Location: Lazarette
Sound Shielded: Yes
Exhaust: Reinforced hose
Ventilation: Natural
Remote Start: Yes
Cabin Lights: 12v – good - occasional lights are out Spreader Lights: 12v - good
Navigation Lights: 12v – stern light is out (Note)
Anchor Light: 12v - Not observed
Hot Water Heater: “Seaward” 11 Gallon - 120vac & engine – SS case - New
Bonding system / Condition: Yes / Connections to thru hull valves have failed at two
locations as noted at survey (Note).
Other: “Vetus” 12vdc bow thruster. Did not power up at survey (Note)


None sighted
“Westerbeke” / Rating not sighted – To be tested at sea trial



Number not sighted / 68 “by meter”




Page 5 of 10 Survey #223A09



GALLEY EQUIPMENT
General Condition: All gear operational and in good condition Sink(s): Stainless Steel
Refrigeration: “Grunnert” Engine driven compressor
– to be tested at survey. “Sea Frost” 120vac –
powered up
Stove Type: “Mariner” Propane
# Burners/Oven: Four w/ oven
Tank Stowage: Port side deck locker Safety Solenoid: Yes w/ gauge powered up Approved: Yes (ABYC A-1.6 - 1.10)
Supply lines: Protected where pass through
bulkheads and vessel structure (NFPA 320 6-
5.10.4.2
Microwave: “GE” - powered up
TANKAGE AND PLUMBING
General Condition: All gear operational and/or in good condition except as noted # Fuel Tanks/Capacity: Two / 150 Gals
Material: Aluminum
Location: Under port settee, behind joiner work stbd side saloon
How Secured: Framing
Accessibility/Condition: Very Ltd / appears good – Diesel fumes present port settee
locker at face of plywood tank framing (Note)
Fills/Vents/Overflows: On deck / topside
Fuel Lines/Clamps: Neoprene - approved
Filters: “Racor” and secondary. No drip bowl under Racor filter (Note)
Shut-off Valve/Manifold: At tank / Supply/return manifold at engine housing by
companionway
Tank level indicator?: Yes – at nav station – operational
# Water Tanks/Capacity: Two / 170 Gals Material: Aluminum
Location: Under saloon sole port and starboard How Secured: Framing w/ FRP tabbing Accessibility/Condition: Ltd / appears good Fills and Vents: On deck topsides Hoses/Clamps: Good
Filters: No
Valves/Manifold: None sighed


Tank level indicator?: # Holding Tank/Capacity: Material: Polyethylene Thru-Hull Fittings/Valves:

Yes – at nav station – operational One / 25 Gals



Bronze ball and barrel valves Approved: Yes (ABYC H – 27.4, 27.5)


Condition: Working , engine intake ball valve frozen (Note) Clamps/Hoses: Double / reinforced
Tapered Plugs?: At each through hull valve below LWL – No (Note) Anti-Siphon Loops: Yes
Raw water Strainers: (3) Bronze Hose Chafing?: None Observed





Page 6 of 10 Survey #223A09



ELECTRONICS/NAVIGATION EQUIPMENT
General Condition: All gear operational and in good condition, except as noted. DC bus bar for mast head electronics is heavily oxidized. It lays at the base of the mast where it is exposed to water dripping down the hollow of the in mast furling (Note).
Compass(es): “Danforth” 5 inch
VHF Radio: “Icom M 502”
SSB: “Icom ICM700Pro”
Autopilot: “Simrad Robertson AP 22” powered up & responded to helm commands Speed Log: “B&G Hydra 330” Powered up
Wind Indicator: “B&G Hydra 330” & “Windex” operational Depthfinder: “B&G Hydra 330”
GPS/Loran: “Raytheon RL70C” C Map NT charting Radar: “Raytheon RL70C”
Stereo/Radio: AM/FM CD
Television: (2) 19“ Flat screen
Ship’s Clock: “Boston” 3 inch Brass
Other: Computer based nav system, Laptop at nav station did not power up
DECK EQUIPMENT
General Condition: All gear operational and in good condition Anchor(s): Danforth Est. 35 Lbs.
Chain/Rode(s): 5/16” / 5/8 Braid
Bow Roller(s): SS on stem
Bow/Stern Pulpit: 1” Stainless Steel / 1” SS Stanchions/Lifelines: 1” SS / double wire Docklines: Misc. braid 3 strand
Fenders: Medium pneumatic
Covers: Bimini – not aboard at survey SPARS, RIGGING AND SAILS
General Condition: Well equipped and in good condition, except as noted.
Type of Rig/# Masts: Sloop / One Material: Aluminum
Where Stepped: On keel
Condition of Step: Good minimal corrosion Keel bolts: Not sighted
Standing Rigging: Rod
Condition: Appears good from deck
Terminals: Flared
Turnbuckles/(pins?): SS / yes
Chainplates/Stem: Heavy duty SS on FRP gussets molded to hull – in apparent good
condition, no present leaks noted
Spinnaker Pole/Reaching Strut: Aluminum
Running Rigging: Dacron braid
Condition: Serviceable
Winches: “Barient” 2 x #36ST, 2 x #28ST, 2 x #24ST, 2 x #27ST (on mast)
Rigging details (vang/traveler,etc.): In mast mainsail furling 12vdc motor drives a worm
gear. Drive motor operated in only one direction at survey (Note). “Navtec” Hydraulic
backstay, vang and centerboard. “Harken” roller jib Sail inventory: Main, Roller headsail, MPS – not inspected



Page 7 of 10

Survey #223A09


SAFETY/REQUIRED EQUIPMENT
General Condition: Gear to be updated as noted Throwable Device: Horseshoe & Lifesling PFD’s: USCG Type II (33 USC 175)
VDS: None sighted (33 USC 175) (Note) Horn/Bell: Handheld freon / yes
Radar Reflector: Yes
Oil/Pollution Placards: Yes / Yes (33CFR151.9)
Fire Extinguishers: (1) 3#, (1) 5#, (1) 8# ABC dry chemical Condition: Gauges in green (Note)
Fixed Fire System: “Fireboy” Halon FE241
Condition: Gauge indicates depleted (Note)
CO detector/ Gas sniffer: Yes / Yes
REMARKS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
ECCO DOMANI was found “Good” overall condition. The vessel is well built and has been generally well maintained over the years. The engine space has all new wiring, plumbing, blower, fuel line runs , sound insulation and etc. The interior has been refinished, and head liner replaced. The Awl grip on the topsides is reported as new. The hull was found in very good condition, coring in apparent solid condition. The deck is generally sound, deficiencies of the deck noted in the report are normal for a vessel of this age, and present no apparent compromise to seaworthiness. Attending to the deck is recommended at some point in the future to mitigate further moisture intrusion, and to preserve the value of the vessel.
In as far as may be ascertained from a general inspection, without making extensive removals or opening up to expose ordinarily concealed areas, and without taking borings to determine thickness or soundness of structures and members, or testing for tightness of components. Upon compliance with the following required items, this vessel should represent a sound financial and insurance risk.
Note: The N.F.P.A. National Fire Protection Association, and ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council), do not represent legal requirements, only safety standards. Non -conformity can affect insurance. U.S.C.G Requirements are law by the Federal Boat Safety Act of 1971.
* REQUIRED NOW:

• 1 Assure a minimum of (3) visual distress signals are aboard that have future expiration dates. (consider SOLAS standard) (46CFR28.145)
• 2 Assure that all navigational lights are operational.
• 3 Recharge engine space automatic fire extinguisher
• 4 Exercise frozen engine intake thru hull valve.
  ** RECOMMENDATIONS:
  Safety Equipment
• 5 Suggest carrying appropriately sized soft wood tapered plugs at each thru hull fitting below the LWL as a precaution against fitting failure.
• 6 ABYC recommends annual servicing and tagging (46CFR28.155) of handheld and engine space automatic fire extinguishers.

[Jbingham]

alden lost. tartan won. put offer on a 2004 44" beauty. fingers crossed!

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by Jbingham

alden lost. tartan won. put offer on a 2004 44" beauty. fingers crossed!

44 inches is awfully small but good luck

[Jbingham]

lol. thats what she said....

Originally Posted by hummingway

44 inches is awfully small but good luck

[Gudgeon]

Jbingham look at your PM's

[Symphony]

Originally Posted by Jbingham

alden lost. tartan won. put offer on a 2004 44" beauty. fingers crossed!

You won't be disappointed with a Tartan. And you will have excellent value getting a modern, late model, hi-tech beauty - besides not having to worry about replacing tanks, or rig. Awesome boat (I have a 4100)

[Jbingham]

Originally Posted by Symphony

You won't be disappointed with a Tartan. And you will have excellent value getting a modern, late model, hi-tech beauty - besides not having to worry about replacing tanks, or rig. Awesome boat (I have a 4100)

totally agree. OFFER WAS ACCEPTED TODAY!!! pending a successful survey we are good to go with a mid august delivery. fresh bottom paint just put on yesterday! She is ready to go!!

[Symphony]

Congrats. be sure to join the Tartan email list - I think the best thing about a Tartan is the very smart and communicative email list.

tartansailing@yahoo.com

[BoxerOne]

Jonathan
Did you get to look at the Sabre 425? What did you think? Was the boat in good shape? Also did you happen to notice the size of the berths -- are they decent for this type of boat?