Steel Boats and Welding

[SaltyMonkey]

Here, I'll give you a hypothetical:

Janet and John Wannaboat live and work in Silly-Con valley. Janet is a QA manager, and John is a Sr. Software Engineer. Both work long hours - over 60 hours a week on average. John is also on call as he maintains on occasion intranet servers in engineering, as well as the company external website. Although they were both very competent sailors before living in Silly-Con valley, their current jobs demand focus and attention for their high compensation.

Janet and John would love to quit their jobs and be able to take 5 or more years off to sail and travel. John would like to sail up in the PNW, Northern Europe and Nova Scotia. Janet would rather sail in a nice warmer southern route in a circumnavigation. As compromise, they decided to do a shakedown up in the PNW, then head south to the milk run around the world, and maybe pickup northern europe and the north east coast on the way back.

This dream keeps them going. They don't mind the long hours at work as they can save money toward their goal and plan their trip. Janet and John Wannaboat have started to look at boats in anticipation of quitting in a year or two and starting their adventure. Although they have looked at the usual plastics, their heart has been gravitating more and more toward steel. They love the lines and roominess of all those Dutch, French, and South African boats on market. Recently, John stumbled onto a thread at CrusingForum.com started by that crazy SaltyMonkey in which was discussed Origami boat building as a suggestion. John then had an idea that maybe it might be worth the cost to have a boat built on his own rather than buy a used one. But, since they live in Silly-con valley - where space and materials are not necessarily easy to come by - and because he and Janet work long hours that only add to their cruising kitty, they are wondering what the associated costs would be to have a boat built professionally on comission within a reasonable timeframe and cost. Yes, they have heard outrageous stories about over-billing and having 500 tabs created by some builders, but they still wonder if it can be done in the allocated timeframe, and what those associated costs might be? They do not mind the fact that they will not necessarily know every grain and weld, and they are not trying to cut corners too much by doing the work themselves or grabbing scraps and parts out of a bin.

So, given this - what is the fair estimate? (forgetting suggestions of buying used, or buying plastic, or other suggestions).

[SaltyMonkey]

bangkaboat - thanks for your last post. sorry I missed it before my hypothetical as there is a lot of great info in it.

Still, would like to see how people respond to the hypothetical as this represents a fair representation of people's life positions and needs. Fair in that they would rather buy steel, but end up with Bennies.

[bangkaboat]

SS3176 - Ecliptica Details - Pacific Boat Brokers Inc.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by bangkaboat

SS3176 - Ecliptica Details - Pacific Boat Brokers Inc.

OMG!!!! DROOOL!!!! =).........

But no fair to Janet and John who specifically would like to have one built - say 35 ft.

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by vic debeer

Salty and Haidan.
Having gone through the process that you've been discussing here for the last few pages.... It took me 2 years (working by myself, while my buddy Steward was working on his boat) to finish the hull of my 30 ft Seatrader.... that means ... working just about every weekend.
Most of the time was taken up by welding and then followed by the subsequent straightening of panels (distortion from the welding). Even though I took my time doing the welding and staggering the welds as much as possible... i.e. welding a 2" section in the bow, and then switching and doing a simmilar section in the stern.
The frames on the boat are spaced at 18" centres and the frames were stitch-welded to the hull plating... regardless, the hull still looked like a hungry horse and I had to spend hours getting rid of these dents and bulges (I did not use any filler or body putty). After the welding I inspected every inch of welding using die-penetrant.
The interion also took a considerable amount of time as everything had to be cut, trial fitted , shaped and the fitted again, before removing it again for painting and varnishing.
Suffice to say, the more haste, the less speed.
Try and make the building part of your sailing experience and enjoy it......

That is the difference between traditional and origami steel hull building. I've tacked togehter a 36 foot hull in two days and the shell,( hull, decks, cabin wheelhouse, cockpit, keel ,rudder and skeg )in about a week. No further fairing was needed.
Hungry horse is caused by transverse frames and not enough longitudinals , or welding the plate to transverse frames before doing the longitudinal welds.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

That is the difference between traditional and origami steel hull building. I've tacked togehter a 36 foot hull in two days and the shell,( hull, decks, cabin wheelhouse, cockpit, keel ,rudder and skeg )in about a week. No further fairing was needed...

See? This is telling and going somewhere particularly w/ Origami.

If we could even half clone Brent into another two, could we expect to complete a hull to the same status in a respectable 2-3 weeks?

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by bangkaboat

SS3176 - Ecliptica Details - Pacific Boat Brokers Inc.

While I only glanced at it.................it seems far too good to be true.

Anyone remotely considering a steel boat should snap that up, unless there are some strong negatives.

Which I suspect there are.

But it still may be a good deal.

Hell, I may snap that up.

[SaltyMonkey]

hpeer do it and give me your Murray!

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by hpeer

While I only glanced at it.................it seems far too good to be true.

Anyone remotely considering a steel boat should snap that up, unless there are some strong negatives.

Which I suspect there are.

But it still may be a good deal.

Hell, I may snap that up.

One does have to carefully inspect these horizons and the inner hullsides are usually not very accessible. I drove through a local marina(Shelter Island Marina) the other day & counted more than a dozen steel sailboats up on the hard. There's another one on the Island, for about the same price, but I don't think the guy who rebuilt it knew what he was doing. beautiful interior, but the pilothouse stands 5 or 6 feet high! Other things missing or wrong, as well. I'll post a link if I come across it.

[bangkaboat]

Others that John & Janet could build/buy:

Passage Yacht Sales Ltd. (Nanaimo, BC)&

Gig Harbor Yacht Sales (Gig Harbor, WA)&

Vela Yacht Sales (Victoria, BC)&
Vela Yacht Sales (Victoria, BC)&

[Boracay]

When I first started looking at getting a steel boat for cruising I asked a yachtie who I knew had built a couple of steel boats "How much?" and he replied "One million dollars." End of conversation.

At about the same time I came across a steel 45' yacht being built in a shed for a private owner. I asked how much he had spent and (from memory) the reply was $850,000, and the boat was still not complete.

A nice steel 45' is going to take at least 10,000 hours, plus materials, equipment etc. I would expect a 34' steelie to be more than 6,000 hours plus the usual.

Building a large boat from scratch does not make economic sense.

[SaltyMonkey]

bangkaboat - the one in Gig Habour completely skipped out of my search. Thanks. That's a nice one. I'm also curious about the Horizon, as they come to be listed from time to time, but I have no idea of their reputation. I saw a nice one in Victoria about 4-6 months ago that looked nice.

Borocay, I hardly think building a 34' Swain is going to cost 850k to 1 million dollars. My guess is somewhere below 100k. How much so, I do not know. I imagine with some very good project management it could be done in a 2-3 months.

[millstb]

SaltyMonkey ...
I was a live aboard in annapolis from '92 - 99 near Mullers Marine on back creek. Beautiful wooden H-28, copper rivited dual hull, no caulking. Moved ashore, got married, sold old the boat and took a job in Az. I'm currently looking at a steel roberts. If it goes well i'll post some pictures.
This forum has been invaluable in helping to make decisions. I'll take a well built Roberts with her slower speeds but reasonable price and hugh list of standard and upgraded equipment.

cheers,

[SaltyMonkey]

good going millstb and welcome to the steel boat addiction!!

[Brent Swain]

Beware that most Horizons and Foulkes boats have no paint inside, but are simply sprayfoamed over millscale , unless you are lucky enough to fine one that an intelligent owner finished from a bare hull. Thru hulls are often plastic which can be kicked of with a light kick. Some had fuel tank vents in the topsides, which go under water when the boat is heeled more than 25 degrees. I've heard many horror stories about them. There is one Foulkes 39 for sale in Nanaimo BC, which was properly built by an experienced builder, with plans . That is the only one I would trust. While Foukes 39's sail well, Horizons are hopeless. Some friends took 89 days from BC to Christmas island.
That is why some rich owners would rather get their hands dirty building one of my boats from scratch , so they know what they are getting.
Dragging your fingernails over the foam, the hollow sound of where it has come away from the steel is obvious. Cut the foam out there and see what condition the steel is in under it , and how well painted it is. If there is no paint, walk away.
I don' t have to be cloned, jut a few extra hands who know metal work and enough tools to keep them simultaneously busy would drastically reduce the time. I don't mind working with them and letting them do as much as possible. Steel fabricating and welding students work well, in the absence of teachers.