Island Packet Closing doors

[a64pilot]

I can tell you that more hulls were built with a chopper gun that you may believe, and that 100% hand laid, squeegeed out resin isn't as common as you may think. And hand laid glass is no better than the experience of the person doing it of course.

Maybe Minaret will chime in, and set us straight.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

... What I do argue that most (though not all) of these modern boats are ill suited for ocean crossing and circumnavigation or even less serious coastal cruising - wide spaces below, lack of handholds, sharp corners, questionable rudders and keels, lack of proper sea berths, etc, etc....

Questionable keels? Do you know of many mass production main market cruisers that have lost the keel? I don't know of any. The only cases I know regarding mass production boats (and only 3) were not main market boats but cruiser racers.

And besides Hunters from a certain vintage do you know of many brands that had a serious problem with rudders? Sure Beneteau and Oceanis had 3 cases (that I know off) on tens of thousands of boats but you know any other brand that has significant rudder problems? if losing 3 in tens of thousands of boats can be considered significant.

Sharp corners are not usual on most of the models and wide spaces below don't seem to be a problem for those that sail those boats offshore and if one wants to put more handholds it is not a problem.

Sure they were not designed for it, that's why they are main market boats, meaning designed for a general use and to satisfy most criteria in all types of sailing and cruising. If you want to use them for crossing Oceans you have to equipped and prepare them for that, including handholds (if one feel that needs them), sea berth, removable stay sail for storm sail, energy production by wind or solar panels and so on.

[sailorboy1]

Must be that time in the thread when the responses cross into the Bah Bah Bah of expert internet seagull speak.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sharp corners are not usual on most of the models and wide spaces below don't seem to be a problem for those that sail those boats offshore and if one wants to put more handholds it is not a problem.

Sure they were not designed for it, that's why they are main market boats, meaning designed for a general use and to satisfy most criteria in all types of sailing and cruising. If you want to use them for crossing Oceans you have to equipped and prepare them for that, including handholds (if one feel that needs them), sea berth, removable stay sail for storm sail, energy production by wind or solar panels and so on.

Or buy a boat that is suitable for the intended purpose in the first place.

A few years ago a production builder came out with a new boat. The local dealership added a nice dodger, but no side handholds. I asked why. The reply was "That's for our offshore dodger model." Holy cow, you mean the boat doesn't heel and bounce around enough in the bay to require them, too?

Pound wise and penny foolish for stupid first time owners who don't know enough to ask the right questions.

First time they realize there is NOTHING to hold onto, upstairs or down, they'll either stay at their docks when the wind is beyond 5 knots, or go to the bothersome trouble of adding somethings that should be there in the first place!

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Must be that time in the thread when the responses cross into the Bah Bah Bah of expert internet seagull speak.

That storm defintiely has the possibility of making land fall. Lets see what happens

[ontherocks83]

Anyone been in the Catalina plant that can comment? It's sort of on my list to do this year.

If you or anyone does please give us your take on it. I would be very interested in your findings.

[s/v Jedi]

I guess I am somewhere in the middle on this. I like the Tayana interior better than the Dufour. For the Contests, I do like the modern style but hate the colors and lack of wood and the sharp corners. It also would have been very possible to add more handholds.

We also have use of modern materials aboard, like plywood with balsa core in the interior to save weight etc. But it did get good looking cherry veneer, solid cherry edging etc.

[ka4wja]

Hello to all,
Well I did 3 stupid things this week! (as opposed to other weeks?)

1) When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was about some issue with cabin doors on Island Packet's, not about Island Packet Yachts possibly going out of business!
As I saw this thread constantly being posted to and then 100's of posts, I clicked on it, and saw how wrong I was!
Duh!


2) I decided I had some spare time, and I read the whole darn thread...
Yes, ALL 337 posts!!
And....
Well, take a look at #3...


3) I decided to add a comment or two...
Why? I'm not too sure, but maybe someone will find it useful?



So here goes.....and please nobody take offense, as my comments are general ones and are not directed and anyone specifically....despite the quotes...

First off, avb, I can comment on Catalina...
I've been to the factory and observed them 3 times over the past 12 - 15 years..
(once was a official tour at 4pm, as most of the employees were leaving....once was mid-morning to pick up some parts...and once was another tour during the day...)
I saw them hard at work, doing hand-lay-up, rolling out/squeezing the vinylester resin, etc...(never saw 'em using a chopper gun)
BTW, Catalina not only welcomes prospective buyers (whether looking at used/brokerage boats, or new), but they're darn proud of their operation, and in addition to factory tours, if you have ordered a boat, they'll welcome you to watch its progress, etc.!
Give 'em a call at 727-544-6681...

Originally Posted by avb3

I'd be shocked if any hull of any brand (well, maybe a Searay, but that's a stinkpot) would be built with a chopper gun. Perhaps some interiors might be, but that would shoot the whole theory of using liners as strength all to hell.

Anyone been in the Catalina plant that can comment? It's sort of on my list to do this year.

And, if I can find 'em, I've got a few photos of a Catalina 470 (sistership to my Annie Laurie) during her build...
Have a look...

Hull (note the AlTec 800 balsa core above waterline):



Structural Grid:


I hope this helps...




Now, as for Island Packet...
As a businessman who grew up and still lives in Florida, and sailing the Bahamas, Caribbean, the N. Atlantic and the Med.....and own a home and business here (as well as a submerged land-lease), I am saddened to read of this news...
Not just a business in trouble, but employees out-of-work, and the economic impact! Sad news...



As, for some of the other issues being discussed here...
I won't comment on the "too heavy" / "sluggish performance" aspects, as I've not sailed an IP...
But, I have been on them, both at boat shows and at anchor, and I can tell you that I also thought "overpriced"! (and NOT as good a Catalina!)
Although I am glad Island Time wrote "most"! ('cause some "modern" / "production" boats ARE well suited for offshore passages, long-range cruising, and heavy weather!)

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

What I do argue that most (though not all) of these modern boats are ill suited for ocean crossing and circumnavigation or even less serious coastal cruising - wide spaces below, lack of handholds, sharp corners, questionable rudders and keels, lack of proper sea berths, etc, etc. Now I am not arguing that other no less important blue water items such as radars, water makers, gen sets, etc. should be part of the basic equipment (even though they are indispensable for BW travel) but at least the basic boat structure features such as handholds, etc. should be part of the design, even if the boat is to be used as a dock queen.

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

....he pronounced the boat "overpriced" for the quality of workmanship she exhibited in these rarely accessed places. His comment was that for $500K he would not want to be afraid of cutting his skin if he stroked the underbelly next to the locker lid or some such.
......But to send your flagship model to a boat show in such a state my friend found unacceptable at that price level. Or even if the boat was "only" $200K.

TacomaSailor's points here are very telling...and contrast well with the opposite approach taken by some other US builders, such as Catalina (and Hinckley!)!!!
Who have been keeping up with what the buyers want, as well as keeping up with technology (to some extent, anyway), while still producing well-made boats!

Originally Posted by TacomaSailor

A friend was a salesman for an IP brokerage and a long distance cruiser in a 42' Island Packet. He had serious experience as both a salesman and cruiser.
He was disturbed and distressed that the IP management and marketing folks were so far out of touch with the modern market and cruising community. He felt that IP owner/managers were ignoring the hard won advice of folks like him who spent 40-hours a week trying to sell the beautiful, but old and slow, antiquated IP boats.

Ken, some US manufacturers DO "understand what the market wants"...just not all (many?)!!

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I saw the Blue Jacket 40 at the boat show just last week. Base price was $475k if I remember correctly... Laughable when compared to the European boats in the next display being offered at under $300k. I got the feeling that it was the same overpriced boat the same dealer was trying to unload at the same New England boat show last season.

When will the American sailboat manufacturers finally understand what the market wants instead of continuing to push designs from the 1980's that nobody (with the money to buy one) seems to want?

I think Island Time is over-estimating anyone becoming "an American Swan" or "a Hinckley alternative"!
Or was this tongue-in-cheek, but you forgot the smiley-face?
You do know that Hinckley just bought Morris Yachts, yes??
So, you see some consolidation and synergies there!! (just like Catalina did years ago, when buying Morgan!)

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

I don't think any of today's builder can survive on an odd buyer here and there, even if they catch a few at each boat show. IMO their only chance to survive in the mid or upper end of the price range is to become "an American Swan" or a "Hinckley alternative" but do they have the time and the $$ to accomplish this? We will learn soon enough.

As for stuff like holding tanks...
A few years back, I was looking at some specs of new Euro yachts, and saw that an X-Yacht (43', I think) had a 3.5 gal holding tank!! No fooling...
But, hey they weren't marketing a "cruiser"...

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

On a design side for example he cites a 6 or 9 gal holding tank on a 42 ft new Hanse. My reaction of course was - "what's the big deal to install 20-25gal tank?" He said - can't do, without major structural modification to the bulkheads, etc. He says there is just no room there for anything larger than 9 gal. You tell me how in today's ecologically conscious times a 42ft boat leaves EU factory with a 6-9gal holding tank which cannot be easily expanded.

Well, that's all from me tonight....
Gotta go..

Fair winds to all...

John

[Polux]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

...
I saw them hard at work, doing hand-lay-up, rolling out/squeezing the vinylester resin, etc...(never saw 'em using a chopper gun)
.
...

No one I know off is using chopper guns. That seems to be a failed experience. Here you can see how Bavaria are done with big mats of fiber (3.18) hand glassed. They also use a structural grid not very different (maybe bigger) than the one on Catalina (3.35).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_VhFSB2b3Q

[exMaggieDrum]

All this discussion as to "build what the market wants" misunderstands what "market" is. Most cars are built to what "the market wants" but that includes a wide variety in price, specs, good looks and bad looks, economy, colors, etc. etc. etc. We do not have to be the lemmings all following the market leaders in to the oblivion.

Having said that, every business must ultimately make a profit and that means in many cases they need to meet a specific volume of sales to break even and then profit. But any type of boat can find buyers if they are of good value and utility to that market segment that they seek to sell to.

Comparing Catalinas and Hunters and Hanses to other completely different boats is self-defeating. What IP may have done is not to have built a boat to any sustainable market segment. I would have considered an IP if they had offered a "better" hull color. The IP color definitely made a statement. But that is only one aspect of the equation. They were selling to the offshore market (from what I perceive - right or wrong) and that is a much smaller market segment. But it is a valid segment with a core group of buyers who desire boats for that use. Unfortunately many boats built for the lowest common denominator "market" (to make brokers happy who only care about their own volumes and profit really - which is expected and not a bad thing) leave the others segments high and dry. And is one reason there is still a market segment where old classic cruisers are still valued (both for price and capability).

I have always valued SUVs. I have owned three Toyota 4Runners, before SUVs were "cool" with a dominant market share. I still have one and it is stiffer and has a rougher ride than the many car-framed based "utes" out there. Mine is 100% more capable for what I want to use it for. So they are still being sold but are now fatter, softer, and plusher than they used to be, at a higher price point. But there is still a small market for Nissan 360Z's, and Corvettes, and Jaguars. They are don't sell many of them at the auto showrooms. If they followed the sage advice of many on this thread they wouldn't sell them at all.

But they are designed to sell to some segment of the market and perhaps IP lost its way in this way. But there is a market for that type of boat. And there are many reasons why businesses go out of business or run out of cash on a temporary basis. They either recover or they don't. Nordic Tugs are built outside of town here. They have probably the highest rep in this area and sell for a premium all over the US for the type of boat they are. They basically "closed" their doors a few years ago with just a few cars at the factory and offices. They are now up and going selling new tugs. They have more competition with lower price point boats that have very similar specs and style (copies of the Nordics). But they still sell.

Long story short, I don't believe the there isn't a market segment for the exact type of boat that IP makes. They may have competition by a handful of other builders and may not market well and may be overpriced but there is a valid segment there. And it isn't met by Catalinas and Hunters. Apples to oranges.

[Kenomac]

Oyster, Hallberg Rassey and Discovery all sell yachts costing three times as much to the same market of cruising couples and families that Island Packet targeted.

Does anyone know if Tayana, Outbound or Hylas is able to sell any yachts in today's market? Similar ocean going boats, built in Asia, priced someplace in the middle just above Island Packet.

Personally, I think the market is rapidly switching over to catamarans for extended cruising. A Lagoon 450 costs less than an IP 485 or Blue Jacket 40 and offers twice the living space.

[Lizzy Belle]

I haven't been following this thread anymore, but have kept an eye out for any news from IPY. So far, still no statement of any kind? Or did I miss it?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Personally, I think the market is rapidly switching over to catamarans for extended cruising. A Lagoon 450 costs less than an IP 485 or Blue Jacket 40 and offers twice the living space.

I think your right there, in market shift anyway, I think IP saw that too, hence their attempt at a Cat. They wouldn't have tried that if Cats weren't hurting their sales.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

I haven't been following this thread anymore, but have kept an eye out for any news from IPY. So far, still no statement of any kind? Or did I miss it?

I'm going to hazard a guess, that if and when there is a statement, we won't miss it.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[ka4wja]

exMaggie,
I tend to agree with you, the "market" is widely varied....but, "market trends" (like Ken is writing about) are changing / have changed....

I guess I agree with you both, as I see the "market trends" have changed much over the 45 - 50 years of my boating/cruising life, but the "market" is varied (and has been for the past 25 years)!!

The sailing/yachting/cruising market's wide variations in price, specs, applications, capabilities, etc., in my personal observation/experience, ramped-up in parallel with advancements in sailing technology (starting with the civilian availability of GPS in 1983, and then a more rapid expansion of civilian GPS / removal of Selective Availability in the 90's)....

The market variations of style, colors, etc. are a bit more recent....within the last 15 years they've come on strong!



But, regardless of the exact timeline of all of this, these variations are not "new"....and any manufacturer that is/was ignorant of these market variations AND the changing market trends, may indeed find themselves in trouble!

This isn't to say that they should've given up on their chosen market share / clientele, not at all!
If they were making "strong SUV's" and saw the market for them shrinking, they'd need to make some decisions as to how-to proceed and remain in business...NOT necessarily change their whole approach, but look and make decisions based on these market changes...
If they were ignorant of these changes, well that is sad....if they chose to ignore the changes, well in my opinion, that is bad business...


But, exMaggie, while there are apples, oranges, peaches, and pears...we are still talking about fruit!
And, while a IP is a whole 'nother animal than a J-Boat, or a Catalina, or Hinckley, or Oyster, or??, etc., they are all sailboats!
I just really wish you hadn't put Catalina's in the same sentence as Hunter's!

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

....Long story short, I don't believe the there isn't a market segment for the exact type of boat that IP makes. They may have competition by a handful of other builders and may not market well and may be overpriced but there is a valid segment there. And it isn't met by Catalinas and Hunters. Apples to oranges.

Fair winds..

John