Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

[otherthan]

whats your experience when conditions dictate that its beter to heave to and stay inside...fin keel vs full keel


in particular these boats!!!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jobi

whats your experience when conditions dictate that its beter to heave to and stay inside...fin keel vs full keel

in particular these boats!!!

I'll make no specific comment as to those. But in general I find that modern canoe bodied fin keeled boats will not heave to succesfully in wind and wave conditions above which I could still sail these boats in. Hence as a survival strategy I don't rate it. In lower wind and regular wave trains it can be useful for a rest.

Dave

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'll make no specific comment as to those. But in general I find that modern canoe bodied fin keeled boats will not heave to succesfully in wind and wave conditions above which I could still sail these boats in. Hence as a survival strategy I don't rate it. In lower wind and regular wave trains it can be useful for a rest.

Dave

so your saying this fin keel would need to be sailed in a storm?

both would need diferent storm tactic?

[boatman61]

Fin keel or full keel.... I heave to when I've had enough...
On the fin keel if the hull keeps getting slapped round onto her beam I down sail and lay ahull with the tiller/wheel midships....
Full keel stays on track longer.. but for everything there comes a time for the least resistance... where the bamboo bends... the oak tree crashes...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by jobi

so your saying this fin keel would need to be sailed in a storm?

both would need diferent storm tactic?

Yes I believe that active sailing techniques are needed for most survival storms in fin keelers. However I personally rate fin keel boats with spade rudders as far more seaworthy in that you retain control of them longer and in more disparate conditions. Heave to was often used in old designs because the boat simply wouldn't respond or exhibited dangerous broaching characteristics in certain conditions. Modern well constructed designs are better IMHO.

I would never advocate lying ahull. In severe conditions this is akin to lying down for a rest on a motorway. Sooner or later the boat will be rolled. It's often advocated when at else has failed, even then it has no merit but is it effect he default condition when the crew can't respond.

Dave

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes I believe that active sailing techniques are needed for most survival storms in fin keelers. However I personally rate fin keel boats with spade rudders as far more seaworthy in that you retain control of them longer and in more disparate conditions. Heave to was often used in old designs because the boat simply wouldn't respond or exhibited dangerous broaching characteristics in certain conditions. Modern well constructed designs are better IMHO.

I would never advocate lying ahull. In severe conditions this is akin to lying down for a rest on a motorway. Sooner or later the boat will be rolled. It's often advocated when at else has failed, even then it has no merit but is it effect he default condition when the crew can't respond.

Dave

Laying a-hull is mainly a single-handers last resort... if you've crew who can take turns... by all means sail away... but if your alone in a 4-7day Atlantic gale...
I'll take the sails down and retire to the saloon with a good book to take my mind of things... sleep, eat and occasionally pop the head up for a nose....
Read up on some of the solo legends... most have done it... a few swear by it... as for that old 'if its so great how come many died at sea....'
$hit happens... even to Cruise ships and Tankers... and fully crewed boats under sail...
Truth be told... the occasional thunderous smack on the hull... or the acceleration and lift as a roller catches you just right and tosses the boat a few yards freaks a few out a bit... its not that bad... once you get the rythm....

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Laying a-hull is mainly a single-handers last resort... if you've crew who can take turns... by all means sail away... but if your alone in a 4-7day Atlantic gale...
I'll take the sails down and retire to the saloon with a good book to take my mind of things... sleep, eat and occasionally pop the head up for a nose....
Read up on some of the solo legends... most have done it... a few swear by it... as for that old 'if its so great how come many died at sea....'
$hit happens... even to Cruise ships and Tankers... and fully crewed boats under sail...
Truth be told... the occasional thunderous smack on the hull... or the acceleration and lift as a roller catches you just right and tosses the boat a few yards freaks a few out a bit... its not that bad... once you get the rythm....

at this point economics stirs me to refit my hinterhoeller28...however I want to junk rig it for long distance cruising...my question is knowing if this would dramaticly afect safty?
regardless of wich boat I keep (junk rigging) was always my plan.

I wanted to know wich one was safest befor comiting to refit.
thanks

[boatman61]

Jobi... having never sailed a junk rig I cannot comment... don't know if they can heave to.... though I imagine with the mast that far forward they'll barepole downwind nicely with a small drogue trailed...
not sure about laying ahull tho'... once again the mast affecting the balance of the boat with the sea... sorta dubious... to me..
Might be an idea going here The Junk Rig Association - Home and getting the info from the 'Horse's Mouth' so to speak....

[otherthan]

I am a member of junk rig yahoo, will ask for sure!

I was more conserned by wich boat was safest.

many thanks

[shorebird]

Although I have zero blue water experience, I always thought one of the safest ways to ride out a storm at sea is with bare poles and a sea anchor holding the bow into the waves. Not so?

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'll make no specific comment as to those. But in general I find that modern canoe bodied fin keeled boats will not heave to succesfully in wind and wave conditions above which I could still sail these boats in. Hence as a survival strategy I don't rate it. In lower wind and regular wave trains it can be useful for a rest.

Dave

I agree 100%, even a long fin keel. You'll need a para chute anchor I guess....

[Cheechako]

If you are truly going to heave to in heavy seas you are going to need a traditional full keel with a lot of forefoot... not a cut away full keel as shown in the pic. If you absolutely have to rest, than a para anchor with very long rode could be used. But by the time you deploy and retrieve that... you'll need to rest again! If your boat can self steer downwind with minimal sail up that may be better....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by shorebird

Although I have zero blue water experience, I always thought one of the safest ways to ride out a storm at sea is with bare poles and a sea anchor holding the bow into the waves. Not so?

I cannot see any use for sea anchors on modern boats. Difficult to deply, constant chafe issues , inspection requires bow trip, not to mention lack of strong points , etc. Possible rudder damage due to danger of being thrown back etc.

My favourite approach is fore-reaching under tiny main ( or storm try sail) and engine. In modern boars with reliable diesels this works very well. Often the boat can fore reach under autopilot even in horrendous conditions. The prop gives the boat directional stability avoids the issue of no wind in the troughs and prevents loss of direction near the top of the wave. This is similar to jogging a technique used by fishing trawlers in survival conditions.

My experience of heaving to in f9-10 was not good , no matter what, the boat would be thrown by the wave motion onto the other tack and start sailing uncontrollably. Otherwise she would lie too broadside to the wind , effectively lying ahull. There was too much tweaking to get her to lie to the wind. In lower Winds or more regular wave trains various fin keelers could be hove to but not with any great long term lack of monitoring.

I agree it's a technique more suited to boats with more keel in the water especially long keeled without a cutaway forefoot. of course these designs are severely compromised in other aspects.

Dave

[bobconnie]

I have to admit, that I always belived in sailing never layed ahull,"yet" now by that I mean I sail down wind, storm jib, bare poles, trailing a large diameter line behind 200 to 300 ft of 2 in or better, and have used oil bags a time or two they do work. I deliverd a 41 ft Tri from Vancouver Island to San Francisco in 1964, during the Big Storm of 64, had to put the drouge out off of the Columbia River bar (which was closed) ended up off of Morro Bay when the storm layed down LOL But the boat weatherd it well and my body did also not to bad a trip. I was taught to make the boat comfortable for Me! and the boat will be all right just my 2 cents Bob and Connie and PS they called it the Columbus day storm altho it lasted 6 days LOL

[Dockhead]

Different boats heave to differently -- even different boats with the same keel type. Many fin keel boats heave to just fine.

My present boat has a high performance bulb keel, and heaves to better than my previous boat, which had a modified full keel. She heaves to splendidly -- don't even really need to lash the helm. I've spent many happy hours hove to in my present boat.