Fantasia 35

[SaltyMonkey]

Be advised of keel modifications on these Fantasia's. I've read similar things to this elsewhere. It seems to be a common problem and solution:

Fantasia 35 Hull #7 - SailboatOwners.com

"WEATHER HELM ON EARLY MODELS: Bruce Bingham, the Fantasia designer, was a genius at interior design and an idiot at hull/sailing design. The CE (center of effort) was designed wrong by over 20%. We fought the weather helm from SF to Europe and back to the Caribbean before we solved it it.To cure the problem we added a 4 foot bowsprit and later we added 3 feet to the aft end of the keel. We removed the rudder and interior steering gear, added 3 feet to the keel and then replaced the rudder at the aft end of the new keel. Inshallah will now steer herself for days at a time. She now sails at least a full knot faster than before the alterations and much more comfortably."

[kentobin]

Originally Posted by Ryban

What do you "experts" think from the video? One thing that has be pessimistic is how long it's been on the market. Is this normal?

From personal experience I recommend finding and hiring a good surveyor. Some things you shouldn't try and save money on and this is one of them. With a list of problems you can talk the owner down in price. My understanding is once a problem is found the seller also has to inform any potential buyer of the problem(s).

Allegedly the boat market is depressed and boats aren't selling so there may not be anything monumentally wrong aside from her being old. Bid low and see what they counter. It's costing the owner monthly fees just to berth her.

[FamilyVan]

I'm no expert but I can compare her to my 1979 Fantasia 35 and can see several reasons she is listed at a lower price.

-She has had very few cruising upgrades electronic or otherwise.

-she has no teak decks, I'm guessing they were removed rather than repaired.

-she has no deep fridge/freeze, which may have been an option selected as an option.

-her bulkheads appear to be plywood rather than solid teak.

-those cheap plastic port lights are a shabby replacement for the original brass and likely not professionally installed. The one in the aft of the aft cabin is of particular concern as the boat was not- to my knowledge designed to have a window there.

On the plus, she has a non original engine, although I know nothing about Isuzu.

-she has a nice looking stove.

-Dickinson heater is a plus.

Hard to say. She might be a decent deal, but not likely a real bargain.

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[FamilyVan]

Just for comparative purposes, the brass port lights, solid teak bulkheads and brass spotlights on mine.

Also- where's the propane locker on the one you're looking at?

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[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

Just for comparative purposes, the brass port lights, solid teak bulkheads and brass spotlights on mine.

Also- where's the propane locker on the one you're looking at?

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FV, for what it is worth, I doubt if those bulkheads are solid teak. I'd bet the farm that under that teak plank overlay lies a plywood bulkhead. Nothing wrong with that either, but vertical planking isn't a normal way to build a bulkhead.

Our bulkheads are similar: 3/4 inch marine ply faced with 1/4 inch New Guinea Rosewood vertical planks... looks nice, structurally sound. What's not to like?

Jim

[FamilyVan]

J.C. I went out to my garage to investigate your comment (I have the door off my v- birth in garage. The doors are undoubtedly solid teak planks. About an inch and a quarter.

I won't be able to verify the bulkhead construction until Friday. At the very least- the joinery is very very good, certainly different than the boat in the video. I drilled some holes in the bulkhead this winter for some modifications and the saw dust was quite consistent.

Having said that- your comment makes sense, ply sure seems like it would be easier and stronger to build with. Ill investigate this week end and report my findings. You definitely have me thinking.

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[Ryban]

For 26K, I'm not sure I'm worried about plywood bulkheads too much. I'm more worried about the standing rigging, the deck, the hull, the rudder modification, and the through deck/hull fixtures. (He did say that it has the MKII Skeg Rudder mod, but I won't be able to see the craftsmanship of this mod without a haul out).

Again, this will be the very first boat I'll be seeing in person and it will, if nothing else, serve as a reference for anything else I inspect. I'm not buying a boat without a haul out and survey.

After seeing your photos FV -- holy balls she's fat. The shear tank-ness of these boats instills blue water confidence in my blood.

My biggest concerns with this boat is, as others have pointed out, its lack of balance. I've been thinking about the bowsprit modification to move the center-of-effort forward, but any DIY projects that involve punching holes through the hull make me nervous. Something like this:


A keel modification sounds out of my league.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by FamilyVan

J.C. I went out to my garage to investigate your comment (I have the door off my v- birth in garage. The doors are undoubtedly solid teak planks. About an inch and a quarter.

I won't be able to verify the bulkhead construction until Friday. At the very least- the joinery is very very good, certainly different than the boat in the video. I drilled some holes in the bulkhead this winter for some modifications and the saw dust was quite consistent.

Having said that- your comment makes sense, ply sure seems like it would be easier and stronger to build with. Ill investigate this week end and report my findings. You definitely have me thinking.

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roger that, FV. Doors and bulkheads carry very different stresses, and can be built very differently. Consider that the main bulkhead in most hulls is subject to wracking stresses (ie, the boat is trying to twist around its longitudinal axis from rigging loads) and compressive forces in two planes (downthrust from a deck stepped mast, and "squeezing" from the hull due to keel loads and rig loads). Plywood or more modern cored panels are good at that sort of job, while plain vertical planking surely is not!

I suppose that it is possible that the folks in Taiwan (I think) might have done the teak bulkhead thing, but it seems pretty bad design and execution if so. I'll be interested in what you find out.

Jim

PS There are some interior shots in my profile showing some of our bulkheads. They look a lot like yours, but in a lighter (colour and weight) timber.

[FamilyVan]

J.C. what you say totally makes sense, re wracking and compression. The wood is actually fairly light in colour, I would take a snap of my door, but my cell battery is dead. The wood under the varnish is nearly white in colour. The pic posted was with my flash off (the pic was illuminated only by the small paraffin lamp), combined with the varnish make my interior appear much darker than it actually is.


Ryban, I'm not trying to discourage you from this boat- I consider them to be excellent bang for your buck, I was just trying to illustrate the difference in the finish- which may lead to different asking prices.


I asked about the propane locker, because there doesn't appear to be one, which may mean an extra job for you in redoing the propane system properly.


I very much enjoy my Fantasia, but I think it's only fair for me to say, that even as a Mark II- she is not an inspiring sailor. She is slow and does not point well.


She is quite possibly the most comfortable boat I've ever been on in rough conditions and I've been on a lot of boats.

[SaltyMonkey]

Her D/L is the largest of any boat I've calculated in my analysis of boats on the market - 472.26. And this matches pretty close to what I've seen out there. In other words, she is a pig. On the other hand, her capsize ratio is sweet and she has a workshop so you can lock yourself in and scream when there is no wind. Believe me, I considered a fantasia until I came to reason.

[nhschneider]

I suggest you contact Bruce Bingham, the designer, before making the purchase. My brother was seriously interested in one until he spoke with him. As I recall, the story that Bruce Bingham told was that the yard that built the Fantasia 35 used sketches he had submitted and not actual plans. Apparently, there were some serious modifications that needed to be made before the boat would be safe for open water passages.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[LekiM]

Ryban
I purchased an early model Fantasia 35 recently and for the most part concur with most of the comments here:

1) The portlights are a horribly weak replacement. I still have the original bronze ones and all they've needed was a replacement gasket.
2) Without a bowsprit & keel modification, this thing is a three-legged pig. The weather helm will be insurmountable in many cases.
3) Without these upgrades, it may also be the case that the fuel and water tanks need replacing. The originals were prone to corrosion and many owners replaced them.

This aside, I do like my vessel. Mine has both the bowsprit and modified keel. With a good set of light air sails, I do enjoy this vessel. It is spacious. All systems and wiring are EASILY accessible. The engine is accessible from three sides. The tanks are large. The motion is super easy. If you can find helm balance, it will stay balanced. It's a great way to get somewhere in not-a-hurry. We've come to refer to her as Apple Bottom amongst friends in light of her size.

I would not accept this vessel based as presented for more than $20K.

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by LekiM

Ryban
I purchased an early model Fantasia 35 recently and for the most part concur with most of the comments here:

1) The portlights are a horribly weak replacement. I still have the original bronze ones and all they've needed was a replacement gasket.
2) Without a bowsprit & keel modification, this thing is a three-legged pig. The weather helm will be insurmountable in many cases.
3) Without these upgrades, it may also be the case that the fuel and water tanks need replacing. The originals were prone to corrosion and many owners replaced them.

This aside, I do like my vessel. Mine has both the bowsprit and modified keel. With a good set of light air sails, I do enjoy this vessel. It is spacious. All systems and wiring are EASILY accessible. The engine is accessible from three sides. The tanks are large. The motion is super easy. If you can find helm balance, it will stay balanced. It's a great way to get somewhere in not-a-hurry. We've come to refer to her as Apple Bottom amongst friends in light of her size.

I would not accept this vessel based as presented for more than $20K.

Agreed. There are $60k fantasia 35's out there, but this doesn't look like one.

He needs to drop the price by about $10k- then you have yourself a deal.

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[NahanniV]

The mast looks like aluminum to me.

Check the tanks carefully, I think they are black iron, and would be a huge job to replace.

From the video it looks like it's a liveaboard, may not have sailed/moved in a long time, don't count on any of the equipment on board to work without being overhauled or replaced.

Do not be afraid to offer a lot less than asking; You will definitely find many unexpected things to spend money on with this boat.

Cheers,
JM.

[Viking Sailor]

The fuel tank is spec'd as being black iron. Mine was in fact mild steel. The guys that commissioned Feeling Good put water in the fuel tank. They pumped the water out but the tank was not dried. The result was that after a few years the fuel tank began to weep fuel. I ended up cutting the tank out a tiny piece at a time. (I weighted the pieces and the tank was about 350 lbs.) I have replaced the single 110 gal fuel tank with two plastic tanks totaling 70 gals. These tanks are relocated to aft of the mast.

The single 220 SS water tank worked OK. However, I don't like the idea of having a single tank for water. So, I also cut the water tank into nice tiny little pieces. It also weighted about 350 lbs. It was replaced with four 20 gal plastic tanks. These are located just under the cabin sole and against the hull on the port and starboard sides. This configuration allows me to use water ballast to help trim the boat if necessary on long tradewind passages. To compensate for the smaller water tanks I have added a small watermaker.

Since Feeling Good is a MK-I Fantasia there is a weather helm issue that I needed to deal with. The first thing I noticed was that most sailboats sailed heeled to the point where their rail was awash. The Fantasia has a lot of freeboard. Much more that any other boat in her size range. Also, as she heels her bow dives down moving her CLR forward. To balance a boat you want to get the CLR of the hull aligned with the CE of the sails. So the first two things I did was not sail the boat rail down and to reef the main early. The next thing I did was to modify the Autohelm windvane so that its rudder is fixed in place with threaded stock. This moved the CLR aft a lot. Also, moving the fuel tanks aft lightened the bow so that she doesn't dive as much. Finally, I tuned that mast to be vertical to bring the CE of the sails as far forward as possible.

I still have one more trick up my sleeve to help with the weather helm problem. I can get my spare main modified to be a hollow cut/batten less main. It seems that my biggest problem with doing this is to find a sailmaker that wont break into tears when I ask him to ruin a perfectly good sail.

These simple and modest (except for removing the tanks,) efforts have resulted in the elimination of the weather helm problem.