Did you buy a 20 - 25 year old boat? please comment

[zboss]

Now that I know a lot more about older boats I would not hesitate to shop for and buy an older boat. However, when first starting out you can only trust yourself - not your broker and certainly not your surveyor. Which is the problem- you don't have enough experience to select a good older boat. I think a lot of people get lucky and buy a good first old boat vs. do so with skill, although they then fool themselves into believing that it was their great skill that allowed themselves to buy a great boat.

So, my recommendation is that unless you have great confidence and skill in all the areas of boat maintenance and are just using the surveyor as a second opinion... buy a much newer used boat... less than 5 years.

[Photosean]

I bought an Alberg 30 built in 1964 last year in July. I picked this boat after looking for over a year and based on the book 20 Boats that will take you anywhere.

I made a number of mistakes. First I didn't follow the advice given about making an offer. The owner originally asked $12k for the boat a little over a year before I purchased it and had dropped the price to $9,5 when I looked at it. I offered $5K as recommended in one of the books I'd read about purchasing a used boat, the author said you'll have to spend what you offered again to get it sea worthy. The owner counter with $7,5 and I bought it.

Here are the mistakes I made.
1) The surveyor had previously surveyed the boat and was a friend of the owner. He said the previous owner was wealthy and had kept it in great shape. He hadn't and the surveyor missed just about every major fault save two.
2) Based on the surveyor's recommendations I failed to do a sea trial. I was assured the old atomic 4 engine had been kept in great shape and he had never had a problem. (My $5k offer was based upon having to replace the engine.) It hadn't been. My first 30 minutes onboard the engine overheated and that was just the beginning of my problems.

Here's all that was wrong and what I've encountered in the 3 times I've been able to sail it.
1) Complete engine failure. 2500 dollars later, replaced exhaust manifold, leaking transmission to propeller collar (stuffing box), rebuilt carburetor, rebuilt starter, new gas lines, new fuel pump, usual maintenance items, plugs, points etc. Still not working.
2) Two new batteries, old ones failed to hold a charge.
3) Mainsail ripped when topping lift wire snapped causing the boom to fall and almost killed my son-in-law. Replaced topping lift $850. with wire not rope as requested since the rigger thought he could run rope through the old block.. he couldn't and replacing that block he said would have cost at least another $500. So it's half wire half rope.
4) All portholes leak and need replacement.
5) All running rigging replaced, and looks like the standing rigging is suspect.
6) No AC/DC input and wiring is also suspect.
7) Of all the electronic instrument on the boat only the radio works.
8) The lifeline stanchions were loose and had to be re-drilled.
9) The furling jib never works properly when being taken in, should be replaced.
10) All the hatches leak, replaced the seals.
11) Hatches in the cockpit don't latch and need the wood and latches need to be replaced.
12) Sail cover snaps ripped out and needed to be replaced.
13) Had mainsail re-sown. Hopefully it will last a few short season of sailing on the bay. New sail costs estimated at $2-$4k.
14) Repainted the bottom ablative coat (did it myself $150) the above the water paint work needs to be redone.
15) Both fresh and salt water pumps in the galley had to be replaced. (Did the work myself $$250.
16) Bilge pump failed, replacement $250 installed by marina mechanic.

All in all, my fault for picking a less than competent surveyor and taking on face value the evaluation of the boat's condition based by the previous owner. Always, Always, Always include in the purchase price of your used boat at least as much money as you paid for the boat. Always. Then factor in what upgrades you'd like to have.

Right now I'm waiting on a mechanic to bore and rethread one of the bolts that secure the exhaust manifold (that I put on) to the engine block. I'm praying the block is still solid enough to be re-threaded.

I've gone through $14k (including my purchase price) and am trying not to face the prospect of buying a new engine.

Still to do...
1) All new electronics, new wiring, AC with battery charger.
2) Replace chain plates (found by surveyor).
3) Replace two barrel valves with ball valves (found by surveyor).
4) New hatches in cockpit. New latches everywhere else.

Of course I'm sure I've missed other problems but don't want to be too negative.


Next time... find a highly recommended surveyor who doesn't know the owner and insist on being with him when he does the work. Check everything suggested in the books on buying a used boat....everything and if your surveyor doesn't mention them ask him to evaluate them. Make certain to do at least a one hour sea trial.

The adventure continues.

[bruce v]

Originally Posted by jimp1234

I'm interested in getting a cruising boat when I retire and I've spent the last 8 - 10 months doing research. I'm sure we want a cruising monohull 40 - 47 ft. but haven't settled on a particular boat-builder. Given our budget we're looking at boats around 10 years old, or older boats that are in the 20 - 25 year age range. The older boats are ones on many of the top 10 Water boats">blue water boats list (e.g. Hylas, Bristol, Tayana, etc.) If you purchased an older boat (20 - 25 yrs old) perhaps you'd be kind enough to share your experiences. Some questions are listed below. Feel free to only answer those questions which resonate with you if you don't have time to go through the whole list.

1. What boat did you buy? Approximate cost?
2. What systems required a refit? In addition to common refit items like standing rigging, sails, engine and batteries, did you have to upgrade any systems caused by age-related wear? Some examples are tankage, hull & deck attachment, electrical re-wiring, hull osmosis, soft spots in the deck, etc. What were the approximate costs?
3. Were all problems areas identified by the survey? Any surprises?
4. How long did the refit take? Did you do the work yourself, or outsource to marine specialists or both? How many "man hours" (your time) did you have to spend?
5. If you did a lot of work yourself, did you have a lot of marine industry experience? Was this your first boat?
6. Exit strategy. If you sold your boat what percentage of the cost of the boat plus refit costs did you get back?
7. Final and probably most important question, would you do it again? Any lessons learned you'd care to share?

TIA

-Jim

It in apparent that many posters are confused by your post. Simply put, why 20 to 25 years old? (The best boats were the original fiberglass models built from late 1950s to about 1978/9 as the price of oil affected the price of fiberglass and resins - oil based products and the shortcuts done by the market made for lesser quality of construction). If you start off with lesser quality, the deterioration factor is greater too. I would tell you that the older boats are a better. choice. (My partner and I buy, refurbish and resell boats so I do have a good idea of what quality is.

Next question is why a 40-47 ' range. Are you planning to just live aboard, coastal cruise or blue water sail off into parts unknown? All of this should factor into your decisions and should be based on more reality than just dreams. If you just want to buy and quick flip, the maintenance cost are not a concern and the condition of the boat is prime (less to replace equals more value). If you want to live in a waterfront "condo" larger is fine but most cruisers that try to start out larger tend to downsize finding the "extra" space is superfluous. Think about starting in the 30 to 35 foot range unless you are planning on having a family or large crew to help you handle and maintain. Larger does require more work and maintenance.

Finally, ALL vessels require maintenance, even new ones (the less maintenance done, the less value for the vessel. We find many vessels at 1/10'or less of value because owners walk away when they do not realize their dreams with the boat they purchased. Again it is paramount that you know why you are doing what you are doing. Having an exit strategy before you invest in a lifestyle is not the best idea that could be presented. If you are unsure about entering the boating lifestyle, any investment is unwise. You also need to expect about 20% of intitial investment as maintenance cost per annum. If you go over that (it might happen on occasions with unplanned extras), it is probable that a following year would average things out. Bruce V

[vtcal]

I bought a 1972 Cal 39 some 22 years ago.
I still enjoy it as much now as I did then!

[SeeMonstrEd]

I bought a production boat that had been in charter service the first 5 years of her life. '96 Jeanneau International 50.
She had been maintained off and on but the PO passed away and his widow did her best to keep her up for sale but the vessel had been sitting unused for a while.
Similar boats we looked at were anywhere from $150K to $250K. We paid much less, under $100K. She is allot of boat for the money. We are very happy with her sailing capabilities. We had a professional surveyor and he caught most of what we had to deal with. Not the rudder bearing issue listed below but it was impossible to inspect without cutting the deck. What he did find did not affect the price because it was already so low.
Three months after we bought her we sailed her up the East coast to the Chesapeake. That was 2 years ago, we have been living on her ever since. We had 2 houses and 4 cars at the time but we lived on the boat because it suited us better. We sold everything that would not fit on the boat. When it got cold I sailed her to St Thomas VI. Now we live here and she takes good care of us. We have everything we need and life is easier.
The first repair we had to do was the mild steel rudder bearing mounts that had rusted away. Very common on this vintage of Jeanneau. Replaced with all stainless steel at a boat yard in St Mary GA.
Almost everything was working when we bought her and the things that were not only needed minor repairs like the both A/C units just needed new raw water pumps.
Other repair/replacements, the dead VHF, replaced all of the seacocks just so I could sleep at night. Most worked but were so rusted and stiff the handles were breaking off. Replaced the SS holding tanks with cheaper lighter plastic ones that actually hold more and won't rust. Replaced one toilet when I broke it trying to replace a seal. Advantage, now I have an extra macerator pump from the old one, all rebuilt and ready to go. Hinges and hoses, hinges stick and break, hoses clog and smell, hose clamps everywhere rust and break.
Then of course the normal maintenance for a 20 year old boat, new hoses in the 3 heads, standing rigging, running rigging, new sails, re-stitching bimini and dodger, new shore power connector. Rewired the generator control harness because the original connectors were all loose. Loose and corroded wire connectors everywhere. It is amazing how much wiring there is on a 50 ft. boat with modern conveniences. Seems like I am replacing connectors every time I open a panel. Good thing I grew up fixing things.
For upgrades I installed a bullet Wi-Fi extender, iridium go sat phone, VHF with AIS, added a dry bulge pump to remove the condensation from the A/C units.
What systems required a refit? Well the heads and the rigging were really the only “refit”. The decks and hull did not show any signs of moisture in the survey or since. The rudder did but…
Had to replace a rudder but that was my fault from backing into something in the Dismal Swamp.
My Perkins 4-236 with 7000 hours runs like a champ, always starts and purrs. That appears to be one thing that was well maintained. I religiously change the oil every 100hrs and fuel filters even more often. I know my fuel tank has lots of crud from sitting so long. Definitely a fuel scrubber system coming soon.
What were the costs? Well I did most of the work myself accept the rudder bearing and new rudder. Those two alone were $9K. New rigging and sails $10K, one sail was used when I bought it from Bacon’s in Annapolis. Probably another $20K on all the other stuff repaired or replaced.
How long did it take? Well like several others on this thread I had the attitude to make it safe then fix the rest as you go. With a slight addition of if you touch it make it better. Many of the things I had to fix I was undoing things POs had done wrong or poorly. Don’t go cheap on repairs, do it right so you don’t have to do it again anytime soon. I have been doing maintenance and upgrades since we bought the boat and will continue, so 2 years so far.
How many man hours? I am not sure, I am slow and careful so probably more than most but I still have had time to enjoy the lovely vessel that she is and shared her with my friends and family.
If you did a lot of work yourself, did you have a lot of marine industry experience? Was this your first boat? This is my first big boat but I am very handy and have always been a DIY kind of guy. If I see a professional do it once I can do it. If I can take it apart I can usually figure out what is wrong and how to fix it.
6. Exit strategy. None, she is everything we hoped for and more. Maybe when I am too old to climb the mast I will switch to a trawler or an RV. By then I will have gotten my money’s worth and won’t care.
7. Final and probably most important question, would you do it again? YES would definitely do it again. Only regret is I did not do it sooner. Lesson learned look at lots of boats, climb on them, and imagine yourself in their spaces. Do you feel safe? Do you feel at home?
We looked a LOTS of boats before we found ours. We went to boat shows and asked lots of questions. Not of the salesmen but the other boat owners that were there. What did they like and not like about the boats they saw? Read this forum, read as much as you can. You will get honest answers about lots of different boats. Think about what you plan to do with your boat and when. Get out on other people’s boats. Join a club and use/rent their boats. Learn what is right for you. Then make your lists of wants and nice to haves. Then look at more boats. When you find one that is close, ask yourself could she be the one? If yes put in an offer but be willing to walk if the seller won’t budge.

Good luck and fair winds.

[michaelratinter]

I bought Blind Faith in August 2015 after a long search. She is exactly what I was looking for. Her builder started in 1980 and launched in 1990. After launch she sailed every weekend for 25 years. Her builder/owner lived aboard three days a week. The point being that continual maintenance was done as needed.

Blind Faith is based on a Bruce Roberts Offshore 44 design. The builder changed the stern to add an aft fishing cockpit and stretched her to 45 feet. She is a center cockpit ketch with a Perkins 4.236 engine, hydraulic steering, autopilot, depth sounder, big battery bank, inverter, microwave, propane stove, macerating head, etc. all original equipment. She was priced to sell at under 50k.

After hull and rigging surveys I decided to replace the mizzen standing rigging. I had a professional do that. After that and dealing with some corroded running light lamps we motored from San Pedro, CA to Bodega Bay, CA. I had some engine problems after the trip north. I replaced the original Fram fuel filters with Racor 500 filter and changed the lift pump. She motors and sails beautifully.

The only thing about the old boat is the head. There is no pumpout. The macerating toilet and holding tank work but I need to add a pumpout connection. I have purchased a Fatty Knees tender which will fit nicely between the main mast and the inner forestay. I am replacing the sail covers with stack packs and adding lazy jacks and running backstays to support her new storm staysail.

I think the key is finding a boat that has been cared for.

[Tetepare]

I didn't buy a 25 year old boat, I bought a four year old boat that is now 26.

I figure it costs me about $2k/year for repairs, improvements, etc. And hours of work every weekend. I do most of my own work.

My boat does not leak. Anywhere. Well, it did this year so I had to rebed one stanchion- which took four hours. What if I had to do them all?

This year alone I've replaced the chart plotter, running rigging, and water heater. Last year it was new propane tank & rebuild the box, replace flooring, new toilet, new macerator & all waste hoses. The year before it was rebedding all the hatches. I'm sure there's more I can't recall.

Sails need to be replaced. 150% genoa has probably had its last repair- next big blow and it's confetti. The dodger is at the end of its life too.

This is all on a boat that is well maintained and loved. All I can say is if somebody plans to refit an older boat, particularly one that's been neglected, you'd better have a lot of time or money or both- or just use it till it's a throw-away.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Photosean

I bought an Alberg 30 built in 1964 last year in July. I picked this boat after looking for over a year and based on the book 20 Boats that will take you anywhere.

I made a number of mistakes. First I didn't follow the advice given about making an offer. The owner originally asked $12k for the boat a little over a year before I purchased it and had dropped the price to $9,5 when I looked at it. I offered $5K as recommended in one of the books I'd read about purchasing a used boat, the author said you'll have to spend what you offered again to get it sea worthy. The owner counter with $7,5 and I bought it.

Here are the mistakes I made.
1) The surveyor had previously surveyed the boat and was a friend of the owner. He said the previous owner was wealthy and had kept it in great shape. He hadn't and the surveyor missed just about every major fault save two.
2) Based on the surveyor's recommendations I failed to do a sea trial. I was assured the old atomic 4 engine had been kept in great shape and he had never had a problem. (My $5k offer was based upon having to replace the engine.) It hadn't been. My first 30 minutes onboard the engine overheated and that was just the beginning of my problems.

Here's all that was wrong and what I've encountered in the 3 times I've been able to sail it.
1) Complete engine failure. 2500 dollars later, replaced exhaust manifold, leaking transmission to propeller collar (stuffing box), rebuilt carburetor, rebuilt starter, new gas lines, new fuel pump, usual maintenance items, plugs, points etc. Still not working.
2) Two new batteries, old ones failed to hold a charge.
3) Mainsail ripped when topping lift wire snapped causing the boom to fall and almost killed my son-in-law. Replaced topping lift $850. with wire not rope as requested since the rigger thought he could run rope through the old block.. he couldn't and replacing that block he said would have cost at least another $500. So it's half wire half rope.
4) All portholes leak and need replacement.
5) All running rigging replaced, and looks like the standing rigging is suspect.
6) No AC/DC input and wiring is also suspect.
7) Of all the electronic instrument on the boat only the radio works.
8) The lifeline stanchions were loose and had to be re-drilled.
9) The furling jib never works properly when being taken in, should be replaced.
10) All the hatches leak, replaced the seals.
11) Hatches in the cockpit don't latch and need the wood and latches need to be replaced.
12) Sail cover snaps ripped out and needed to be replaced.
13) Had mainsail re-sown. Hopefully it will last a few short season of sailing on the bay. New sail costs estimated at $2-$4k.
14) Repainted the bottom ablative coat (did it myself $150) the above the water paint work needs to be redone.
15) Both fresh and salt water pumps in the galley had to be replaced. (Did the work myself $$250.
16) Bilge pump failed, replacement $250 installed by marina mechanic.

All in all, my fault for picking a less than competent surveyor and taking on face value the evaluation of the boat's condition based by the previous owner. Always, Always, Always include in the purchase price of your used boat at least as much money as you paid for the boat. Always. Then factor in what upgrades you'd like to have.

Right now I'm waiting on a mechanic to bore and rethread one of the bolts that secure the exhaust manifold (that I put on) to the engine block. I'm praying the block is still solid enough to be re-threaded.

I've gone through $14k (including my purchase price) and am trying not to face the prospect of buying a new engine.

Still to do...
1) All new electronics, new wiring, AC with battery charger.
2) Replace chain plates (found by surveyor).
3) Replace two barrel valves with ball valves (found by surveyor).
4) New hatches in cockpit. New latches everywhere else.

Of course I'm sure I've missed other problems but don't want to be too negative.


Next time... find a highly recommended surveyor who doesn't know the owner and insist on being with him when he does the work. Check everything suggested in the books on buying a used boat....everything and if your surveyor doesn't mention them ask him to evaluate them. Make certain to do at least a one hour sea trial.

The adventure continues.

This is really a great post. Sorry to hear about it, but this is really instructive for anyone considering buying any boat, new or old.

Reminds me of something my dad used to say..."other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

edit:
this may interest you:
http://svsalacia.blogspot.com/2016/0...port-beam.html

[jkindredpdx]

I bought a 1974 Hallberg Rassy 35 Rasmus for $45,000.

Over 6 years that I've owned the boat, Replaced hydraulic steering head $450 myself. Marine electronic company replace the Magnetron for Furuno 1720 $400. Minor headsail UV cover repair. Minor sheet and line replacement. I replaced 4 seven year old Trojan lead acid batteries. I replaced working head with composting toilet. I built a proper LPG tank locker.

Surveyor found no issues.

Com/Nav Electronics are outdated but functional so I only added. Laptop w/ OpenCPN and AIS and added a handheld VHF.

I feel all my work was in line with normal maintenance and occurred over 6 years. I am handy with tools, but no marine training. This isn't my first boat, but first live-aboard. My boat had two POs both approximately 20 yrs and I feel the boat was well maintained. Plus HR 35 is well built. I would definitely buy the same boat again.



JimK

[boeing1]

my boat is a 1984, as in the above post a lot depends on how the boat was maintained.

[MAJICDAN]

I purchased a 1974 Gulfstar 53 ft Ketch Pilothouse Motorsailer. It has been double hulled with a hull thickness from 1.5 to 2 inches thick. It has british die formed rigging, 500 gal fuel tank. 350 gall water. 16 gal/ hr watermaker, 9k amp generator. Bow thruster. 4 solar cells, and two wind generators. I bought it after it had returned from a 10 year trip, it's second time around the world, for $70,000. I bought it expecting to put another $50,000-70,000 in it before I take it around the world again. The newer boats are less expensive when new, lighter, faster, but fragile, and the mechanicals do not last 1/4 as long. How it was built, and condition are more important than age.

[navysurfer]

1988 Tayana 37 ft, Pilot House cutter rig Sailboat.

Needs work , but the hull is sound and I feel this was a well built boat, so do aprox. 599 other people. I have had her for a few years, wanted a safe, simple well founded hull, that can take care of her self in a pinch. Could not be happier, love the boat, the design, and every inch of the 6 ft draft, well offshore anyway.

Simply can not afford a new or newer boat and have cruising kitty left, be careful, don't rush. I think its a buyers market and you can find a great boat if u look and have cash.

Great posts about this, good luck keep sailing

Pops......

[jkindredpdx]

As Photosean said be present during the Survey... My broker representative was awesome and she encouraged me to crawl through the lockers and bilges and really suss it out. Then I researched the heck out of the manufacturer and model. Then I waited a month for my surveyor to return to the state and I was his shadow during the survey... the PO also had a file box with all his manuals and maintenance records.

[Suijin]

Jimp I'm not sure that the responses in the aggregate are going to do you much good. When you start actually setting foot on candidate boats you'll quickly learn that they are all over the map in terms of condition and maintenance. You'll find the abused ones and the bristol ones and everything in between.

Ideally, the strategy that you want to follow is finding a boat that just went through a recent extensive refit and is now for sale, for whatever reason. No one ever gets the money out of a boat what they put into it, no matter how recently it was done. It's just a fact of life. There are boats out there that fit this profile, you just have to be patient and continue looking.

As mentioned, you can take a survey with a grain of salt. The surveyor has 5-8 hours to pour over the boat and there is stuff they are going to miss or not be in a position to inspect or diagnose.

When purchasing my most recent boat, which was up in Connecticut, I solicited the names of surveyors in the area on this board. One name came up repeatedly, and I ended up using him. He was fine, but he missed a lot, about $10k worth of repairs that I subsequently performed myself.

Every boat is in a constant state of decline and in a boat 20+ years old you're going to be constantly fixing/replacing stuff. It's just how it goes. You want to find a boat where the big ticket items have been done. Repowered, if it's not an immaculately maintained low-hour engine. Deck hardware and maybe ports rebedded. Main electrical rewired. Newish standing rigging, etc. All this stuff will be at it's service limit if it's original, depending on how the boat has been used and maintained.

I've done a tremendous amount to my Valiant since purchasing it going on four years ago. Bottom scrapped down and redone, new stove, new plumbing, rewired batteries and new switch and combiner, new standing rigging, new instruments, added wind vane, new port lights, reglazed hatches. There is always a project waiting to get done. A new halyard here, a new pump there. It's just how it goes.

Would I do it over again? Of course, because a new boat of comparable size, quality and function would cost @ $800k. I also like working on boats. Do I wince overtime I have to write a check for something I can't do myself? Indeed.

The payoff is that they just don't make boats the way they used to. I have the mast down right now (racing to get it back up so I can head south), and after 30 years it was time for new rod rigging. Navtec would tell you it was way past it's lifespan, and it was, but the rigger, one of the best on the east coast, kept commenting as we were inspecting the rig fittings "Look at that...that's brilliant...they just don't make them like that anymore..."

Don't under estimate the cost of maintaining a large boat. If you want to keep a boat of that vintage in great shape, you're looking at putting 10%+ of the purchase price into the boat every year. Sometimes more, maybe sometimes less, depending on what breaks or needs updating before it breaks.

[W3GAC]

Purchased our Cal 46-3 ketch when it was 20 years old. Went through all your same concerns, research,...
I was/ am very partial for center cockpit design for cruising/ life below deck... creates two distinctive spaces (aft cabin and main saloon... and also separate v-birth). No matter how compatible a couple is... it's good to have the ability to have a little distance. The Cal 46 was the first sailboat designed specifically for cruising and while not beamy by today's standards is spacious below with 200 gal of diesel, 150 water and storage everywhere. It has an enormous chart table/ desk (I was a live-aboard consultant for years), a stand-up engine room with workbench! Also... very important... the cockpit has two long straight portside starboard side seats seats. necessary for sleeping/ being close by for consultation during partner night watch shifts... or hot Caribbean nights. The Cal 46 has another feature I initially didn't know how much we would ultimately appreciate... the port side cockpit seat lifts up to reveal/ peak at/ listen to engine room. But more importantly... it quickly lets the heat escape at end of motoring. Also the aft shower has a pass-thru door into engine room so morning shower humidity can also easily vent out. With a center cockpit is easy to enclose it during late Fall, Winter, early early Spring. Even at 30 degrees outside, when the Sun comes up it warms the cockpit to shirt sleeves temps by 10a. We often ate lunch/ diner up in the cockpit while it was snowing outside from the heat generated from cooking and/ or the diesel heater. Oh yes... OMG the diesel heater I installed when we came back to my native Chesapeake Bay was a game changer! Boat as comfortable as home. I'm an electronics engineer and grew up in farm environment with a sailing dad who taught all the farm shop skills at the local high school so was exposed to woodworking, welding, engine rebuilds, ... so with my electronics background and a garage full of tools I was ok with doing my own survey parallel survey and eventually all our (extensive) updates (air-conditioning, generator, inverter/ 4-8D AGMs plus Group 32 AGM starting batter, holding plates, added breaker panel for these heavier loads. In the electronics arena; radar, dual chartplotters (helm & cockpit bulkhead), insulated backstay, several amateur radio antennas/ back-up VHF marine, TV antennas on mizzen. New smarts driving the original auto-pilot hardware. Scanning sonar. I'm sure I have left out 10x what I covered. Refit was about $50k and of course more updates over the years of some of what I originally installed (radar, GPS, radios,...) Our Cal 46 ketch took us from San Diego to two yrs of Caribbean cruising, and back up to NYC while I finish my last 10 years of career and now 8 years here in Chesapeake Bay. By the way, I'm now 70 and the Cal 46 is 40. I've owned her for half her life and 1/3 of mine. FYI- At 70 I'm in the initial thought process of considering selling our wonderful cruising boat. If you might have an interest, feel free to contact me. Good luck in your search and I can only hope you enjoy the ride as much as we have.