Day Sailers for New York Harbor and Long Island Sound?

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, I don't know what the scene is now, but back in the 70s we had a SYRA fleet racing in the central bay, and there were around twenty swing keel Cat-22s on the starting line every week. No sinkings, no capsizes, occasional broken masts, lots of good racing.

I will admit that I lusted after a Ranger 23 at the time, though! And sailed some on the Santanna 22s. Both are arguably better sailors than the Catalina, but much harder to trailer... usual trade-offs!

Jim

Jim

There is always a Catalina 22 on sale somewhere. They are like Corollas.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Wumbug

Interesting! Admittedly I have never sailed a C22, but it still wouldn't be my first choice due to the relatively light ballast, especially when single handing.https://youtu.be/vjsgYP6EycU

Its keel is not that deep either. Still, it will be a good boat for me. I would pick a J22 over it though.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

NYC you have twice specified a fractional sloop rig. I must ask what makes a fractional rig superior to a masthead in your opinion. In my opinion for boats of this size it makes very little difference in either performance or convenience, so you might reconsider that requirement, for it narrows the field unnecessarily.

And fwiw, the Catalina 22 in either swing or fixed keel is a very common trailer sailor with tens of thousands built, so easy to find and easy to sell and just as competent as other similar sized trailer boats.

Jim

I also have more specs requirements for singlehanded learning in regard to D/L, SA/D, Ballast ratio, and over all displacement. But I don't even bring them up as they would make it too hard to find anything. Well, the over all displacement I would like it to be under 12k lbs which every boat at this size fits the requirement. Eventually, there has to be compromises here and there, otherwise it will be an impossible task. I don't think I will miss a cheap Catalina 22 if she is in good condition.

I know you have good memories with a Catalina 22. Its swing keel will be a bigger issue more than its masthead sloop rig. I believe there are fin keel versions of them - again I believe - but possibly hard to come across one.

Capri 22 on the other hand, would be a good choice for me - the ones with fin keel, not the wing keel.

[Wumbug]

Originally Posted by Nyc

I also have more specs requirements for singlehanded learning in regard to D/L, SA/D, Ballast ratio, and over all displacement. But I don't even bring them up as they would make it too hard to find anything. Well, the over all displacement I would like it to be under 12k lbs which every boat at this size fits the requirement.

"Similar to Cal 22, but up to 12k lbs" is a strange and broad requirement!

It sounds like you're concerned about performance, in which case you should also look at the PHRF ratings of these boats. You'll see the J/22 and Sonar are much faster than Cal 22/R23, which are in turn significantly faster than a C22.

Despite Jim's positive experience with the Catalina, there are a lot of downsides to the swing keel beyond reduced ballast, eg

-Can fold up during knockdown/broach/capsize, resulting in drastically reduced righting moment
-Not as strong as a bolted keel
-Suboptimal shape/waterplane area (?)
-Provides point of entry for water into cabin
-Maintenance issues

Additionally swing keel boats are generally not intended for coastal sailing and tend to be more lightly built.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Wumbug

"Similar to Cal 22, but up to 12k lbs" is a strange and broad requirement!

It was a joke. 'Less than 11k - 12k' is a concern considering the future sailboats for singlehanded purposes, something let's say, 35 - 38 ft. I mentioned that as the ones I look for now easily fits in that range of course - Just a bad joke. I mean that number being too big for Cal22 and such was the joke itself. Just ignore it pls.



For LIS, I would pass the Catalina 22, but its swing keel would be good choice for shallower waters.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Wumbug

It sounds like you're concerned about performance, in which case you should also look at the PHRF ratings of these boats. You'll see the J/22 and Sonar are much faster than Cal 22/R23, which are in turn significantly faster than a C22.

J22, Cal22 and Capri22 are the winners so far. Although, what boats will be available when I am actually in the market is another story.

[LCS]

Dear Adventuresome Sailor

I grew up sailing in both areas. NY Harbor is not the best place to learn to handle your new boat. I'd lean towards the LIS option. A sturdy sort of boat to sail on LIS that is quite sea-worthy might be something like a Cape Dory 27'. While this is not a super-fast boat it is a sturdy craft and a good beginning coastal cruiser as well a pretty boat (I like traditionally looking craft). It would be tiller steering and a nice easy sail plan to handle with everything nicely rigged to handle single- handedly, if needed. She would have an inboard diesel most likely. You could take this boat to Newport, Gardiner's Bay, Mystic, Block, etc., and be proud of her.

Whatever you buy -- best wishes!

LCS

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by LCS

Dear Adventuresome Sailor

I grew up sailing in both areas. NY Harbor is not the best place to learn to handle your new boat. I'd lean towards the LIS option. A sturdy sort of boat to sail on LIS that is quite sea-worthy might be something like a Cape Dory 27'. While this is not a super-fast boat it is a sturdy craft and a good beginning coastal cruiser as well a pretty boat (I like traditionally looking craft). It would be tiller steering and a nice easy sail plan to handle with everything nicely rigged to handle single- handedly, if needed. She would have an inboard diesel most likely. You could take this boat to Newport, Gardiner's Bay, Mystic, Block, etc., and be proud of her.

Whatever you buy -- best wishes!

LCS

I love the traditional looks of the old long keels. Cape Dory 27 is a lovely example. There is some sort of romantism in them.

Agreed with the LIS option. That's what I'll do. Sailing to NY Harbor from LIS will be a task in the far future in the second - or third - sailboat.

I saw J/24s and Sunfish-s of sailing clubs at NY Harbor though, but possibly, must be happening on certain calmer days. I understand the J/24, but the Sunfish? I would hate to fall into that water trying to figure out a sailing dinghy.

I would like to have deep fin keel​, tiller / spade rudder​, fractional sloop​ rig, D/L under 170​, SA/D ~22, B/R > 32% with deep fin keel. Considering the small sailboats I seek, displacement won't be an issue. Some easy to handle from the cockpit design, seaworthy, something that will sail even in the light winds. At the moment, I don't care about amenities, comfort, or aesthetics.

Cape Dory 27 doesn't seem to fit the specs range... But what do I know? I have no sailing experience on a keel sailboat. All I have in my mind is a general idea in theory in the light of some sailing articles. I have been parroting what I have read over here over there. The specs in my mind will probably mean nothing when I am actually in the market for a used sailboat. There will be a lot of compromises from those specs I listed. Cape Dory 27 is just too much of a stretch.

I am okay with a well-designed swing keel or internally ballasted fixed shoal keel with centerboard, masthead sloop, transom hung rudder, with cabin or no cabin - the calculations are also okay to be out of range to a degree, but Cape Dory 27 has Disp./Len.: 418.53 and S.A./Disp.:15.29. Does it even sail in light winds? A real question. I have no idea about the answer.

Anyhow...

As you've guessed reading my thread, I've got lots to figure out before I can sail anything. I just have to somehow start from somewhere - Some small cheap keel sailboat.

Thanks again for sharing your experience and recommendation. I'll keep it in mind.

[Nyc]

I think what I'll do is to check out sailing clubs and small keel sailboats on sale around at the time. I have to get off-line now; the more I surf the Net, the more spec requirements I will come up with.

I got great ideas here and learned a lot. Very helpful. Thanks everyone.

[CaribbeesYC]

Join this org: https://hudsonsailing.org.

[bobmcd625]

Just a few thoughts:
1. I grew up sailing small (14' to 19') centerboard boats on LIS with no problems. The area is lovely. Much nicer than NYC (IMHO). Which port is up to you depending on personal logistics.
2. Get some formal instruction when you get to NYC. Only school I know of is Atlantic Yachting at Pier 25. Basic Keel Boat Sailing is a good start. They seem to use J24s. There you will get more info on boats, waters, berthing. etc.
Good luck and fair winds.

[bobmcd625]

Originally Posted by CaribbeesYC

Join this org: https://hudsonsailing.org.

Did not know about this organization when sending my post. Certainly worth a look.

[CaribbeesYC]

Originally Posted by bobmcd625

Did not know about this organization when sending my post. Certainly worth a look.

Much better location, resources, team (and larger fleet) than Atlantic in my opinion. And I was going to recommend a J/24 as a good all-round NY Harbor boat.

[bobmcd625]

Originally Posted by CaribbeesYC

Much better location, resources, team (and larger fleet) than Atlantic in my opinion. And I was going to recommend a J/24 as a good all-round NY Harbor boat.

Yes, indeed. Looks good. And I like their membership arrangements. Perfect to start sailing in a new location. Thanks for letting us know.

[garyfdl]

I'd first look for a sailing club/community sailing group that has boats and use theirs for a while... while you look for a suitable one for yourself and a place to keep it.

The east coast is loaded with used Cape Dory's, slower but sea worthy. The Pearson Ensign is a great little boat. Bristol had a CD Typhoon rival called the Corinthian, also a good little keelboat (that was my first 45 years ago still miss her )

None of these boats are 'speed demons' but you'll look great sailing any of them.