Day Sailers for New York Harbor and Long Island Sound?

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Danm1

A 9.9 high thrust outboard has gotten me up and down the East River on a 25 footer a couple of times, so doing it on a 22 is certainly possible. But, timing the tides makes it an all day commitment. You could go down, stop at a marina in NJ or Staten Island or Atlantic Highlands for a day or two, then come back to the LIS. Frankly, it's probably something you'd only do once for the experience. On the other hand, a 22 is fine for day sailing the western Sound and Liittle Neck Bay, Port Washington, and City Island are convenient to Manhattan.

I've decided not to do that with my first keel sailboat; with the first one, I will stay in LIS. I will leave that passage for a future / bigger sailboat - when I have enough experience. Still, it was fun to daydream awhile.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Wumbug

I've never sailed the LIS but I don't see any problem with a boat like a Cal 22. Some smaller keelboats (eg rhodes 19) do not have self bailing cockpits and would be at a disadvantage.

In general, larger boats are more seaworthy, and there are certainly tougher boats than the Cal 22, but the Cal is enough boat most of the time. While not advisable, with some luck and preparation you could probably sail a boat like the Cal across Atlantic, or even around the world and survive. Certainly people have crossed oceans in lesser craft many times

With older boats condition is everything, so it's best to search for a boat that is in good condition and meets your criteria, rather than search for a specific model.

I picked Cal 22 as an example because other than the rudder, it puts a check on every box in the specs I seek - and its transom hung rudder is better than many spade rudder designs.
Sa/Disp: close to 22
Bal/Disp: over 35
Disp/Len: under 130
seems easy to single hand
On paper, it might be what I look for. That's why I chose it to explain what I wish to have in a sailboat. I mean any boat in that category will do the job for me.

[Wumbug]

Originally Posted by Nyc

I don't know if Cal22 has self-bailing cockpit.
If I buy something 22 ft then I will only sail in LIS; I won't sail it to Ny Harbor.
Cal 22 is just an example to express my thoughts. Here are my desired features in a keel sailboat:
Fin keel​
Spade rudder​
Tiller preferred
Fractional sloop​ rig
Self-bailing cockpit
Seaworthy, easy to handle, comfy, simple head & galley, a bimini hopefully, a good sailboat to learn on, easy to maintain.
Of course, a masthead sloop or a transom hung rudder or a wheel steering or lack of bimini wouldn't be a deal breaker.

These are the knowledge I learned and figured out reading here and there, nothing organized. I haven't sailed anything but a dinghy. I've been seeing a lot of Cape Dory Typhoons for sale lately. I wouldn't be surprising myself if I found myself in one of those one day despite their specs being pretty much the opposite of what I look for.

I assumed the Cal 22 was self bailing, but I just looked at an ad for one and didn't see any cockpit drains. I believe the cape dory is only self bailing in non-daysailer trim.

My personal preference for a boat in that size with those specs would be a Sonar. I find on small boats the cockpit gets used much more than the interior and I only go below to use the head or stow stuff, but that's just me. The sonar is nice because the cockpit is large and it also has a very large coaming, which gives a great feeling of security and provides some shielding from the elements.

Btw, have you seen this Sam Holmes video where he sails a Ranger 23 from Los Angeles to Hawaii?

https://youtu.be/yUi0gsxVHZM

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Wumbug

I assumed the Cal 22 was self bailing, but I just looked at an ad for one and didn't see any cockpit drains. I believe the cape dory is only self bailing in non-daysailer trim.

My personal preference for a boat in that size with those specs would be a Sonar. I find on small boats the cockpit gets used much more than the interior and I only go below to use the head or stow stuff, but that's just me. The sonar is nice because the cockpit is large and it also has a very large coaming, which gives a great feeling of security and provides some shielding from the elements.

Btw, have you seen this Sam Holmes video where he sails a Ranger 23 from Los Angeles to Hawaii?

https://youtu.be/yUi0gsxVHZM

I don't know if Cal22 cockpit is self-bailing.

I mentioned about Cape Dory as a joke, of course.

I've never heard about Sonar. I will check it out. For a moment, I read it like Soling.

I think I would go with something like J/22 or First 235 with fin keel or Capri 22 or US22 or I don't know. Ranger 23 is a nice boat too; thank you for introducing that one to me. I will read about it and check out if there are many for sale close by.

Mr. Holmes is pushing the envelope. He cruised the Bahamas on a Hobie 16 too.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Wumbug

....
My personal preference for a boat in that size with those specs would be a Sonar. I find on small boats the cockpit gets used much more than the interior and I only go below to use the head or stow stuff, but that's just me. The sonar is nice because the cockpit is large and it also has a very large coaming, which gives a great feeling of security and provides some shielding from the elements...

Sorry, I mixed up Sonar and Soling in my mind earlier. I edited and fixed the comment. Yes, Sonar seems like a good option too.

[boatman61]

Sure looks like the Cal 22 has a self draining cockpit to me.. at the forward end of the cockpit well.

[hugosalt]

Welcome to CF Nyc.
Our home port is in western most LIS just east of the Throgs Neck bridge.
Manhasset bay and western sound ideal for for what you want to do.
About half hour on Long Island railroad Port Washington line.
When you get settled, give a call and would be glad to show you around,
go over options as clubs, moorings...and come for a sail, (sorry my boat has a wheel and a little bigger)
Just finishing our winter sailing here, but still have sound pretty much all to ourselves.

[hugosalt]

FYI...from western most sound/beginning of East river if you go down river with full current will take a small boat around 2 hours to battery/Statue of Liberty. Its a great experience but not a sail, many motor all the way.
Although I have taken a 25 fter down river not really advisable for a small sailboat. (barges, ferries, seaplanes landing, wakes)

[Jim Cate]

NYC you have twice specified a fractional sloop rig. I must ask what makes a fractional rig superior to a masthead in your opinion. In my opinion for boats of this size it makes very little difference in either performance or convenience, so you might reconsider that requirement, for it narrows the field unnecessarily.

And fwiw, the Catalina 22 in either swing or fixed keel is a very common trailer sailor with tens of thousands built, so easy to find and easy to sell and just as competent as other similar sized trailer boats.

Jim

[Wumbug]

Originally Posted by Nyc

Sorry, I mixed up Sonar and Soling in my mind earlier. I edited and fixed the comment. Yes, Sonar seems like a good option too.

No problem, Sonar is just a suggestion since they are popular in your area. Obviously if you want any sort of interior beyond a head it's not the boat for you.

The Ranger 23 has a repuation as a tough San Francisco bay boat and you see a lot of them in the central bay when it's rough and windy. Another popular boat here is the Santana 22. Both were made in southern california so are probably not as common where you are. You won't see many swing keel Catalina 22s sailing in the same area. Note the Santana and the Ranger are heavier and have a lot more ballast than some other boats of this size, that may be a factor in their seaworthiness. Google Santana 22 and you'll see a bunch of them sailing in rough weather.

[Jim Cate]

You won't see many swing keel Catalina 22s sailing in the same area.

Well, I don't know what the scene is now, but back in the 70s we had a SYRA fleet racing in the central bay, and there were around twenty swing keel Cat-22s on the starting line every week. No sinkings, no capsizes, occasional broken masts, lots of good racing.

I will admit that I lusted after a Ranger 23 at the time, though! And sailed some on the Santanna 22s. Both are arguably better sailors than the Catalina, but much harder to trailer... usual trade-offs!

Jim

Jim

[Wumbug]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

No sinkings, no capsizes, occasional broken masts, lots of good racing.

Interesting! Admittedly I have never sailed a C22, but it still wouldn't be my first choice due to the relatively light ballast, especially when single handing. Out of curiousity, I looked up the original prices of the the Ranger and Catalina, and the Ranger cost more than twice as much when new. Obviously these days the difference in price isn't so meaningful. I also ran across this line from Gary Mull, the designer of the Ranger, in the Practical Sailor article about the R23:

'In a lengthy epistle evaluating the boat, penned for the R-23 owners association shortly prior to death in 1993, Mull described the design as being “a little ship capable of sailing anywhere in the world safely, and swiftly.”'

They also said "boats (meaning ranger) were expected to withstand higher stresses encountered on the Pacific near San Francisco than those in Southern California or the Chesapeake, for instance."

Anyway, I wasn't recommending the Ranger to Nyc, I was just arguing along the lines that "if Sam Holmes can can sail an R23 to Hawaii, then Nyc can sail a Cal 22 on the LIS."

Nyc, here's another video you might enjoy of Santana 22s racing on the SF bay. These conditions are not unusual during the summer. These guys also race on the Pacific Ocean off of Santa Cruz.

https://youtu.be/vjsgYP6EycU

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Sure looks like the Cal 22 has a self draining cockpit to me.. at the forward end of the cockpit well.

Thanks man for pointing to that. I've been learning a lot from your posts.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by hugosalt

Welcome to CF Nyc.
Our home port is in western most LIS just east of the Throgs Neck bridge.
Manhasset bay and western sound ideal for for what you want to do.
About half hour on Long Island railroad Port Washington line.
When you get settled, give a call and would be glad to show you around,
go over options as clubs, moorings...and come for a sail, (sorry my boat has a wheel and a little bigger)
Just finishing our winter sailing here, but still have sound pretty much all to ourselves.

Thank you.

[Nyc]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

NYC you have twice specified a fractional sloop rig. I must ask what makes a fractional rig superior to a masthead in your opinion. In my opinion for boats of this size it makes very little difference in either performance or convenience, so you might reconsider that requirement, for it narrows the field unnecessarily.

And fwiw, the Catalina 22 in either swing or fixed keel is a very common trailer sailor with tens of thousands built, so easy to find and easy to sell and just as competent as other similar sized trailer boats.

Jim

Catalina 22 breaks many rules of mine, but what do I know. I can only know the numerous articles I've read about rigs - and that knowledge doesn't mean that much until I sail both masthead and fractional sloop rigs. I wish I had a meaningful answer to your question, but I currently have sailing theories in my mind. I need experience.

Yes, your point is valid. It would be a bad idea not to consider the sailboats that do not fit my specs criteria. Despite being a swing keel, mashead sloop, and transom hung rudder, a Catalina 22 in good condition would make a good starting boat for me.

Still, I would pick a Cal22 or a J22 if I can.