AMEL - Death of the Cruising Ketch ?

[boom23]

Things change... Market, technology, taste, etc. Ketches (new) don't sell very well anymore.

Amel had to adjust to survive. I'm glad they did, because I really like their company, philosophy, and products.

This topic is like beating a dead horse... It has been brought up many times already. How about the twin rudders? What were they thinking?

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Plenty of things!


But one Herreshoff had his opinion on that.


barnakiel

He drew beautiful lines, new boats can't compete with some of the older masters works.

[Enfant Du Vent]

With GPS, no more true sense of accomplishment that you found the harbor in spite of heavy fog. Now the call goes out loud and clear, "Land Ho....Ho Hum."



And come to think of it, no more gold ear ring to pay for your last Mass if your body washes ashore after not finding the harbor.

[HankOnthewater]

Time is moving on at a steady pace, so is technology, fashion and fads.
We are still seeing gaff rigged boats, and many love them, for their aesthetics and their abilities. Very few are made new.
Long keelers have all but gone in the boat building yards, except maybe for a few homebuilt projects.
Who knows ketches are also on that pathway: admired by many, sailed by a few.
Here is the first photo I took of a ketch: year approx. 1977.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by boom23

Things change... Market, technology, taste, etc. Ketches (new) don't sell very well anymore.

Amel had to adjust to survive. I'm glad they did, because I really like their company, philosophy, and products.

This topic is like beating a dead horse... It has been brought up many times already. How about the twin rudders? What were they thinking?

I'll tell you what they were thinking. When a super beamy boat heels it exposes the top of the rudder and it starts to ventilate and therefore loses some of its lift which requires more helm. As you add more helm your adding drag and exposing that rudder to stalling.
The simplest way to deal with this might be to add substantial depth to the rudder but that might put it lower than the keel and still won't be as effective as two rudders. So pretty much all the builders including the likes of HR are going with two rudders.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by HankOnthewater

Time is moving on at a steady pace, so is technology, fashion and fads.
We are still seeing gaff rigged boats, and many love them, for their aesthetics and their abilities. Very few are made new.
Long keelers have all but gone in the boat building yards, except maybe for a few homebuilt projects.
Who knows ketches are also on that pathway: admired by many, sailed by a few.
Here is the first photo I took of a ketch: year approx. 1977.

Pretty boat, might be a yawl.

[robert sailor]

Many of you might remember Steve Dashew and some of his well known boats. Some of the later ones were ketches and they flew.... often making 300 mile days so nothing slow about some ketches.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I'll tell you what they were thinking. When a super beamy boat heels it exposes the top of the rudder and it starts to ventilate and therefore loses some of its lift which requires more helm. As you add more helm your adding drag and exposing that rudder to stalling.
The simplest way to deal with this might be to add substantial depth to the rudder but that might put it lower than the keel and still won't be as effective as two rudders. So pretty much all the builders including the likes of HR are going with two rudders. [emoji2]

Robert sailor, I was joking about the twin rudders. I understand the reason of their existence, as I understand the reason of the demise of the ketches.

Things change... If the change is good, it sticks. If not, it doesn't.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by boom23

Robert sailor, I was joking about the twin rudders. I understand the reason of their existence, as I understand the reason of the demise of the ketches.

Things change... If the change is good, it sticks. If not, it doesn't.

Perfect...I've still got 2 more days of quarantine before I can leave the house so lots of time on my hands right now. Looking for distractions, lol

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Pretty boat, might be a yawl.

Not based on where the person is sitting and the mizzen is fairly forward. It's a ketch.

[Bill O]

Once you actually sail a ketch rig you will understand its usefulness. As usual, many of the naysayers have never sailed a ketch rig, so they just don't know.

Sailed sloops most of my life and will say it did take me a while to deal with all the possible sail combinations available w/the ketch rig you just don't get w/the sloop.

At this point it would be very difficult to go backwards to a sloop rig for cruising unless I wanted to put that large arch on the stern to load up w/solar (not). The sloopers have a major criticism of the ketch rig of having too much air drag going upwind. I'd contend the air drag from that loaded up arch w/a dinghy hanging off the davit is probably equivalent or more than a mizzen mast going upwind.,but for some reason the junked up arch is acceptable these days.

Not trying to convince anyone about the ketch rig, but if you haven't tried it, don't knock it.

[Mag3]

as a designer i appreciate what Amel has done. New technologies have enabled a new type of design approach whilst still trying to serve their core brand values and audience.

there are many comments here about Ketch "Naysayers"... i don't know that anyone is saying they're bad. As with any design decision there are trade-offs. Ketch's balance beautifully, offer more sail configurations / flexibility, and their smaller sails are easier to manage. On the other side, running and standing rigging costs are all doubled. The second mast introduces very real space/layout restrictions both on-deck/cockpit and for the interior of the boat.

Their belief is that advancements in technology have negated some (not all) of those ketch benefits, with essentially none of the ketch's restrictions etc.

earlier someone mentioned Herreshoff - as someone who grew up in rhode island and was a student of his boats and having sailed on many of them, what people forget is that he was at the absolute forefront of the technology available at the time... and the forms of his hull were the result of the one design standards of the time and the materials he had at the time... make no mistake, were he alive today, he'd be building foiling cats with hard wing sails and computer controlled helms.

I love classic boats.. i grew up sailing on a Bill Garden designed double ended cat schooner that had a gaff rigged main, marconi rigged foresail, and both sails were on mast hoops on tapered unstayed sitka spruce masts. I loved that boat (Itatae)... but dear god was she **** at going to wind, weather helmed like nobody's business, tons of work to maintain, and not something you wanted for anything other than day sailing in Narragansett bay.

ultimately the "right" boat design is the one that serves you and your personal needs. When someone asks what you think of their boat it's like someone asking you what you think of their life partner. The only proper response is to ask that person "Are you happy?"... if the answer is "yes" then the response is, then i love your [boat, partner, etc.].

[TDB1227]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Not trying to convince anyone about the ketch rig, but if you haven't tried it, don't knock it.

Agree - AMEL ketches are awesome boats

[Mag3]

well a general rule of thumb i wish was followed here (and on other forums) is that you shouldn't proffer an opinion or advice on anything you haven't had personal real world experience with.

but i suspect pigs will fly first...

Originally Posted by TDB1227

Agree - AMEL ketches are awesome boats

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

When you start plunking a second mast on a sailboat you really restrict the interior layout as well as the exterior.


(...)

How do you restrict interior layout? Or do you mean when the mizzen is not deck-stepped.



Btw I did like their ketches. I am looking at the new mast on the AMEL 60 .... it is so damn tall. Neither you fit under ICW bridges, nor you want to go up it to check anything.


Looking at the pictures I do like the interior a lot, although it does feel a bit too wide down below.


b.