AMEL - Death of the Cruising Ketch ?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

And is one of the reasons why so many cruisers today need a good weather window to go anywhere I reckon..

As sailing boats get bigger, they also get faster. And a faster boat has way better options to manage bad weather than a small boat.


One thing is that there is less motion. Then there is more speed.


So to say: for the big boat, a storm starts later (same ocean, less motion vs. a smaller boat). Also, a bigger boat can cover more miles each day (and especially so in rough water).


So the bigger boat has 'longer' available weather windows, and better tools to position itself vs. an approaching weather in open water.


But neither less motion nor better rough water sailing ability helps in the long haul. Any boat, also a 50' Amel may find itself one day in a weather that will overpower it. That's where good layout steps in. And in a 50' Amel there will likely be at least one person inside, hence the importance of interior layout.


Amels have always had outstanding deck layouts, way above and beyond Oysters or HRs. Also A50 seems to be no worse than their earlier boats. Interior? Well, I do not think they were in a position to hold on to their earlier solutions. Hence the new boat is a sloop, and her interior is like any other modern day big boat interior.


b.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

...
We simply cannot have large open space salons, plenty of light, large tables and sofas AND safe sea-going features all at the same time. It is an either / or situation. As many others in boat design (imho).

b.

The wifey and I were discussing this yesterday. If we are able to build a boat, one of the possible choices is a swing/lifting keel. One of the trade offs is the keel box which splits the interior amidships. This is a good thing. This is a bad thing.

The good thing is that one can design a U shape galley on one side of the keel box and a small salon on the other side. This makes for very secure spaces since one cannot fall very far because there simply is no, or very little, open space.

The bad thing is that the limited space down below is now visibly more closed off and split into smaller spaces. If one has a pilot house this can be mitigated to some extent but that mitigation has other design impacts...

Without a swinging/lift keel, the space is far more open, which is great in that the small space can be made to seem larger, but then one has farther to fall in a knockdown or just being hit by a big wave and one has given up the ability to get into shallow areas.

Boats are soooooo design compromised/challenged.

While the concern about being knocked down is real it is far more likely one could just loose one's balance when hit by an unexpected wave or a big a...ssed wake. It really does not take much of either to have one loose balance.

Later,
Dan

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

As sailing boats get bigger, they also get faster. And a faster boat has way better options to manage bad weather than a small boat.


One thing is that there is less motion. Then there is more speed.


So to say: for the big boat, a storm starts later (same ocean, less motion vs. a smaller boat). Also, a bigger boat can cover more miles each day (and especially so in rough water).


So the bigger boat has 'longer' available weather windows, and better tools to position itself vs. an approaching weather in open water.


But neither less motion nor better rough water sailing ability helps in the long haul. Any boat, also a 50' Amel may find itself one day in a weather that will overpower it. That's where good layout steps in. And in a 50' Amel there will likely be at least one person inside, hence the importance of interior layout.


Amels have always had outstanding deck layouts, way above and beyond Oysters or HRs. Also A50 seems to be no worse than their earlier boats. Interior? Well, I do not think they were in a position to hold on to their earlier solutions. Hence the new boat is a sloop, and her interior is like any other modern day big boat interior.


b.

Yes, bigger boats have more stability and speed. The culprit lies in the in the fact that the people on board can't if the interior is not made safe and secure for a human being..

[Mag3]

"(And personally? Yeuch.)" - not sure how i shouldn't find that as insulting..

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by Mag3

as a designer i appreciate what Amel has done. New technologies have enabled a new type of design approach whilst still trying to serve their core brand values and audience.

there are many comments here about Ketch "Naysayers"... i don't know that anyone is saying they're bad. As with any design decision there are trade-offs. Ketch's balance beautifully, offer more sail configurations / flexibility, and their smaller sails are easier to manage. On the other side, running and standing rigging costs are all doubled. The second mast introduces very real space/layout restrictions both on-deck/cockpit and for the interior of the boat.

Their belief is that advancements in technology have negated some (not all) of those ketch benefits, with essentially none of the ketch's restrictions etc.

earlier someone mentioned Herreshoff - as someone who grew up in rhode island and was a student of his boats and having sailed on many of them, what people forget is that he was at the absolute forefront of the technology available at the time... and the forms of his hull were the result of the one design standards of the time and the materials he had at the time... make no mistake, were he alive today, he'd be building foiling cats with hard wing sails and computer controlled helms.

I love classic boats.. i grew up sailing on a Bill Garden designed double ended cat schooner that had a gaff rigged main, marconi rigged foresail, and both sails were on mast hoops on tapered unstayed sitka spruce masts. I loved that boat (Itatae)... but dear god was she **** at going to wind, weather helmed like nobody's business, tons of work to maintain, and not something you wanted for anything other than day sailing in Narragansett bay.

ultimately the "right" boat design is the one that serves you and your personal needs. When someone asks what you think of their boat it's like someone asking you what you think of their life partner. The only proper response is to ask that person "Are you happy?"... if the answer is "yes" then the response is, then i love your [boat, partner, etc.].

Very cool note, especially the last part about the "right" boat. Enjoyed your thoughts here!

Things like this are certainly relative to one's needs. In the context of ocean crossing and major passage making, which was for a time a dying trend and has recently exploded in the last several years. More people than ever are blowing up more remote places than ever...as many more people cross oceans again, it can become difficult to discern if modern trends are keeping up with this new growing demand that is more similar to perhaps previous generational trends, only with less discerning folks who are less interested as a whole in understanding boat design...this gives way to companies outright misleading people in their advertising campaigns and even covering up serious safety flaws.

There are many boats that work quite well for coastal cruising that people buy expecting to cross oceans and sometimes its perfectly fine in the hands of a skilled captain and other times is disastrous, even in the hands of a skilled captain.

It's up to the buyer to do the lengthy and exhausting research and forums like this are an excellent place to start, even though there are contrasting opinions to sift through. The more uneducated/inexperienced people we have purchasing boats they don't actually want or need from companies making ticking time bombs (won't name any, but suffice to say we've seen some shocking things first hand recently during our search), the more production trends will move towards putting less money on build quality and more money on marketing.

In this feed, soooo much has been brought up...Ketch vs sloop, skeg hung vs twin rudders and the conversations go on and on but for me personally I just want the boat to fit my needs, and do do safely and comfortably. I'd be perfectly happy with twin rudders if I felt it was safe and knew that both rudder heads came through aft of a watertight bulkhead and could also be operated independently of one another should one break. Yet I'm stuck in skeg hung rudder land at the moment because so far in the range of boats we are looking at each is much more safe.

Your point remains, and was well said. The "right" boat is different for each sailor. I really like these discussions because I feel it adds value to the search for those newer sailors (myself included) looking in hopes to find builds that are timelessly efficient and on a safe hull and layout. I hope the modern builders can some day survive making super bomber boats again and that the increase in world traveling, trendy cruisers, creates a sustainable market demand for more quality design practices.

[Hoodsail]

Not a boat designer but sure can quote one whose opinion corresponds to mine. In Jan/Feb 2018 issue of "Good Old Boat" Bob Perry states: "We live in a world where production boats are almost indistinguishable and designer "signature" styles have pretty much disappeared. It's far from the world of yacht design that I chose as my life's work."

Specifically the Amel 50, I echo others comments in that every boat has a potential owner, but my concerns would be the windage from this center cockpit and the volume of windows...it would be a challenge to invert-proof such a boat. thnks

[Indecenseas]

Originally Posted by Hoodsail

Not a boat designer but sure can quote one whose opinion corresponds to mine. In Jan/Feb 2018 issue of "Good Old Boat" Bob Perry states: "We live in a world where production boats are almost indistinguishable and designer "signature" styles have pretty much disappeared. It's far from the world of yacht design that I chose as my life's work."

Specifically the Amel 50, I echo others comments in that every boat has a potential owner, but my concerns would be the windage from this center cockpit and the volume of windows...it would be a challenge to invert-proof such a boat. thnks

Jeesh thats a powerful comment from the dude.

[bailsout]

First CF email I’ve received in over six months. Why I got this one and have lost the dailies I have no idea. I think I posted or contacted CF and someone else made the same complaint.